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Epic: Siege v1.12
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 10:48 pm 
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I'd rather keep Fearless Preachers than that ; the list is supposed to be usable, if not particularly unique.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 10:50 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 05 May 2009, 22:43 )

It surely tarnishes the previous testing, if not completely invalidating it.

I think the tanks and guns and infantry and fortification were having a *LOT* more of an effect, in my game at least, than the Preachers... fearless only came up once in three turns, when a broken formation was assaulted and only the Preacher's unit survived, all other Preachers either died in fights, were never broken, or stayed broken.  

Fearless had almost no effect at all.

If none of the Preachers had been fearless, it would've meant, in the whole battle, one more unit would've died... that's it... can't see how that invalidates the playtest.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 10:51 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 05 May 2009, 22:48 )

the list is supposed to be usable, if not particularly unique.

So take the time to make it usable *AND* unique.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 10:54 pm 
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It seems clear to me that the list is nowhere near playtested enough, and if the deadline is to be met then there's no way it will be playtested enough in time. Therefore a simple "This is a historical recreation list rather than a tournament list, so is for friendly games only" or similar tag will be the only way I can see of making the deadline without validating a possibly broken list for general usuage.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 10:58 pm 
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I don't think the list is currently broken, less so than the Siegemasters at least, which have some really serious problems!


Plus, I've carefully said nothing about tournaments for the Death Korps either ... it's up to tourney organisers to decide if they want to use the Siege lists or not.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 11:05 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ 05 May 2009, 22:53 )

I have played literally dozens of gamess with this list,

And you never noticed it was "Barans Plus", essentially over-writing the Siegemasters?  My opponent noted this immediately.

Could you just answer this question though: If Mossinians, in there v1.12 incarnation, and Barans were both available why would you pick Barans?  If the answer is only "Shadowswords", there's definitely and overlap problem.

I don't like your list as:

It's infantry heavy- this makes it inaccessable due to the large number of infantry required.

The 1:2 ratio of core to support makes a one dimensional list as you can only build an infantry horde themed list. (I've tried to allow for some different themes: tank heavy, arty heavy, aircraft heavy, infantry horde)

It follows exactly the same structure as Barans so the armies will look similar.


Isn't the list supposed to represent a Planetary Defense Force?  I think those are pretty infantry heavy.  *laugh*  And, since my list was only a proposal, a "3 for 1" change is easily made, but the "two for one" seems to be common to Imperial Guard armies.

1/4 aircraft is clumsy and very limiting (3 formations in 3k).

This is the same limit that the Barans have... I don't think a rebel army should be able to put more planes into the air than supported Imperial forces, hence the change.

The upgrade system is chaotic (like LatD), yet Mossonians are not chaotic.

The strange numbers of upgrades won't actually suit collections which will be made up of "Imperial" measures of unit (excuse the pun!)

It's not "chaotic", it's "flexible", allows for the possiblity that not everyone rebelled so all the gear isn't 100%... yet you can still add the "full Imperial measure" if desired.

Your list has very cheap upgrades making lists very easy to build - no difficult decisions.

You still only get 3 upgrades per core formation... I'd say that leads to a lot of difficult decisions.

Its not complete yet as there are no special rules or stat changes.

The list was put together for use with the current stats and special rules... with changes suggested in the thread.

Obviously I am totally biased! But I would like to know other peoples views on Chroma's list as it does represent another way/alternative direction.

Thanks for taking the time to read it, Rug!

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Chroma
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 11:09 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ 05 May 2009, 22:53 )

I have played literally dozens of gamess with this list

Could you post some of your army lists here, Rug?

What have been your opponents responses to the list?

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Chroma
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 11:19 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ 05 May 2009, 23:12 )

I wouldn't like to see us go back to square one because Chroma doesn't like the list.

It's not that "I don't like the list", it's that "Siegemasters already exists"... if a list is going to be *published* it really ought to be able to stand on its own.

The reason I'm being so harsh, after my eyes were opened by my Marine opponent (as I'd never even looked at the Mossinians before), is that I want "EPIC: Siege" to be *freaking awesome*.  Rushing to put in a low-tested, "knock-off" list, does not achieve that goal, in my opinion.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ 05 May 2009, 23:27 )

Differences between Barans and Mossonians:

Siege Master Infantry have twice the firepower of Mossonians.

E&C indicated to me that that's a typo, that they should both have the same "basic infantry" stats... since they cost the same.

E&C, can you clarify that?




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 11:36 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 05 May 2009, 23:05 )

Could you just answer this question though: If Mossinians, in there v1.12 incarnation, and Barans were both available why would you pick Barans?  If the answer is only "Shadowswords", there's definitely and overlap problem.

The Mossinians are going to receive some not so small nerfs in v1.13, as already indicated.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 11:37 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 05 May 2009, 23:31 )

E&C, can you clarify that?

I believe it was originally a typo (Don't know if it was TRC or me now), but it could be kept.

After all, the Siegemasters *are* overpowered...

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