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Epic: Siege v1.12
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 10:38 pm 
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It's understandable I guess, it's just very bad for Epic.

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Killed by Death
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 10:42 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 02 May 2009, 22:38 )

It's understandable I guess, it's just very bad for Epic.

What I don't get is why they think the game is better off in constant limbo than as a solid product..

And now I just checked the SG store: who'll ever buy a tank company at 30 quid?
Let alone a squiggoth at 10? I've got 16 of those buggers.. that's 160£ outrageous! I remember when the Baran came out. Everyone thought the prices were wrongly typed. But they weren't! Haha!


Ok enough of my raving on... but to topic! Siege: 1.2 is grand and truely nicely done. go:

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zombocom
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 1:46 am 
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Quote: (Killed by Death @ 02 May 2009, 22:30 )

I've already seen the thread there, but I don't really know jack about 3d graphics and I don't have a matter-printer at my disposal.. soooo!

There are rumours that in time, if an appropriate gift upon the altar of the Otter, glorious bounties may be recieved in turn.

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fredmans
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 11:44 am 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 03 May 2009, 01:46 )

Quote: (Killed by Death @ 02 May 2009, 22:30 )

I've already seen the thread there, but I don't really know jack about 3d graphics and I don't have a matter-printer at my disposal.. soooo!

There are rumours that in time, if an appropriate gift upon the altar of the Otter, glorious bounties may be recieved in turn.

I gather that Otterman has miraculously unearthed some ancient STC:s which he takes micro-photos of, scan and later post on this forum.

/Fredmans

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Chroma
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 3:18 pm 
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Got in an "EPIC: Siege" game yesterday: Marines vs Mossinians

I'll post some comments later... read it and let me know what you think!

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Chroma
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 9:22 pm 
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Here's the thoughts of my opponent about the Mossinians and "EPIC: Siege":

And the comments on the Preacher?

WARNING - Harsh opinions follow:

My opponent thought they were ridiculous.

When we first were getting ready to play, my opponent said, "This army just looks like a Siegemasters-knock-off."

After we'd played, had a debrief, and he'd read over Siege, his response was, "This army just looks like a Siegemasters-knock-off, with better options!  Why would anyone choose to play Siegemasters if the Mossinian list was allowed?"

Re: Preachers - "So, you're trying to tell me, a rebellious PDF, on a minor, back-water planet is able to produce multiple dudes who are as elite as Commissars, in the same numbers, *and* can equip them with power weapons?!  That's ridiculous."

Re: The Mossinians - "It's like someone wanted better Siegers but not to call them Siegers... even the Break the Spirit rule is the same... but they get three choices of support, better armoured tanks, and [freaking] Sniper Squads... as many as they want!  This is just stupid.  If you're going to make a new army, don't just make a better copy of one that already exists."

Re: The Story - "So, basically, 'A wizard did it.'  That may be one of the most disappointing things I've read in the 40k universe... these guys rebelled cuz they wanted to die *more* for the Emperor than they were allowed... so they formed a democracy to force the issue?!  It doesn't even make sense... except that a Tzeentch cultist somehow made them do it?  WTF?"

Re: Death Corps - "Looks pretty wicked, wish they'd been in Swordwind like originally planned... and at least it's different from any other Guard army."

Re: Art - "Pretty awesome what fans can do, that cover is rocking.  Wish the enemy force was something more inspiring for an inner cover."

Re: Overall - "I certainly wouldn't buy this... it's got, basically, one new army and 'photocopies with white-out' of two already released armies... hope GW doesn't sue."

So, this was all from a guy who doesn't frequent the forums, but is an avid EPIC player; sorry if it was harsh, but I thought an "outside" opinion might shed some light on things.  Re-reading over the Mossinians list after our chat really made me ask, "What *is* the point of releasing the Mossinian army?"  Is it just supposed to be an "expanded and updated" Siegemasters list, because almost all the changes simply make it better than the "original"... I'll bring up specific points in the Dev forum.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 9:33 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 03 May 2009, 21:22 )

When we first were getting ready to play, my opponent said, "This army just looks like a Siegemasters-knock-off."

It is.
It's a Siegemasters army that uses some OOP models, it was even originally designed by the Siegemasters army champion.



Re: Preachers - "So, you're trying to tell me, a rebellious PDF, on a minor, back-water planet is able to produce multiple dudes who are as elite as Commissars, in the same numbers, *and* can equip them with power weapons?!  That's ridiculous."



They're identical to Commissars.

Any opinions as to how they could be better represented?


Re: The Mossinians - "It's like someone wanted better Siegers but not to call them Siegers... even the Break the Spirit rule is the same... but they get three choices of support, better armoured tanks, and [freaking] Sniper Squads... as many as they want!  This is just stupid.  If you're going to make a new army, don't just make a better copy of one that already exists."

The Break their Spirit rule is slightly better actually, after Rug changed it.


Re: The Story - "So, basically, 'A wizard did it.'  That may be one of the most disappointing things I've read in the 40k universe... these guys rebelled cuz they wanted to die *more* for the Emperor than they were allowed... so they formed a democracy to force the issue?!  It doesn't even make sense... except that a Tzeentch cultist somehow made them do it?  WTF?"

*shrug*

I think it's kinda a comment on the nature of extreme patriotism and how it can be easily led down a self destructive path, but YMMV.

Re: Death Corps - "Looks pretty wicked, wish they'd been in Swordwind like originally planned... and at least it's different from any other Guard army."

Nice he liked something. :D


So, this was all from a guy who doesn't frequent the forums, but is an avid EPIC player; sorry if it was harsh, but I thought an "outside" opinion might shed some light on things.  Rer-eading over the Mossinians list after our chat really made me ask, "What *is* the point of releasing the Mossinian army?"

The point is to make an army list that allows the use of some OOP models.

Is it just supposed to be an "expanded and updated" Siegemasters list, because almost all the changes simply make it better than the "original"

I'd prefer if the changes made it worse than the original!




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Chroma
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 9:37 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 03 May 2009, 21:33 )

I'd prefer if the changes made it worse than the original!

We chatted some more about it on MSN and I've had some thoughts too, I'll get back to you in a bit... gotta do some house cleaning.

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dptdexys
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 9:44 pm 
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I'm finding the Mossinian fighters too good at 4 for 150. 3 and Fixed forward fire arc would seem a better fit.

With 4 they are great at CAP and can fly through most defensive flak without any worries.

I still think the Mossinian Bomber should have 4+ armour as Bombers cannot Jink even when disembarking.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 9:47 pm 
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I too have my doubts about 4 fighters for 150 points.

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GlynG
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:05 am 
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The power weapons is a good point, perhaps droping those down to just normal chainswords/close-combat weapons could be more appropriate for the lower tech pdf? Nice to have them different and the list does need some downsides in comparison to the Siege list. Not otherwise going to comment on the list, but I like the story :) It's interesting to see a democracy in the 41st millennium and the Imperium's characteristically blunt reaction, while the White Scars involvement made me laugh :smile:

Perhaps a teeny bit more could be delved into about what they hoped/expected from the war with the imperium and how their public opinion changed as the war went badly for them. In history classes years back I remember something about how the British people went into one of the World Wars thinking 'oh it'll all be over by Christmas'. If it were made more explicit that the Mossinian's thought if they held out against the Imperium for a bit they'd pack it in and realise how tough soldiers they were and be pleased to let them fight with them. They need a very strong convincing motive to fight what they hope to join and some exit strategy in mind initially for the reader to see, even if it's a hopelessly optimistic one and the actual result just turns into a drawn out fight to survive. You already have this done pretty well, I just wonder whether it might not be improved with an odd line or two added here and there. I don't have it to hand btw and it's been a while since I read it, just writing off the top of my head and my overall recollection.

Incidentally why weren't Krieg in Swordwind if they were originally planned to be? What stopped them? Was if FWs doing them?
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zombocom
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:15 am 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 03 May 2009, 21:22 )

Re: The Mossinians - "It's like someone wanted better Siegers but not to call them Siegers... even the Break the Spirit rule is the same... but they get three choices of support, better armoured tanks, and [freaking] Sniper Squads... as many as they want!  This is just stupid.  If you're going to make a new army, don't just make a better copy of one that already exists."

The army was originally written by TRC as a Siegemasters redux, intended to be less breakable than the original siegemasters list. Seemingly he may have misjudged the list somewhat...

I mentioned to E&C many times that it was pretty pointless having a list so similar to the siegemasters, that he might as well just have said "to play mossians use the siegemasters list". Then again, that would have left a pretty short book... Certainly too late to change this now, though the list is likely to be revised a few times before printing.


Re: Preachers - "So, you're trying to tell me, a rebellious PDF, on a minor, back-water planet is able to produce multiple dudes who are as elite as Commissars, in the same numbers, *and* can equip them with power weapons?!  That's ridiculous."


The numbers should be much higher than Commisars really, if you read the background. Power weapons are perhaps a little much, and maybe they shouldn't have fearless, but it certainly isn't ridiculous.

Re: The Story - "So, basically, 'A wizard did it.'  That may be one of the most disappointing things I've read in the 40k universe... these guys rebelled cuz they wanted to die *more* for the Emperor than they were allowed... so they formed a democracy to force the issue?!  It doesn't even make sense... except that a Tzeentch cultist somehow made them do it?  WTF?"

I disagree here, the story makes perfect sense and is actually quite a lot more complex than most "X kills Y" GW writing. The main story is followed by a prologue and epilogue each told from different viewpoints which makes for an interesting story. The motivations and actions of the Mossinions seemed perfectly plasuible to me, as did the misunderstandings of the situation by the Krieg and White Scars. Given that the result is a tragedy of miscommunication, it seems perfectly plausible that it was all manipulated from behind the scenes by a tzeentch worshiper.

It's at least more ambitious an idea than the standard 40k stories, which are usually horribly flat.

Re: Overall - "I certainly wouldn't buy this... it's got, basically, one new army and 'photocopies with white-out' of two already released armies... hope GW doesn't sue."

White Scars are an official list that has never been in a book; it's quite sensible to have it in there.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 11:31 am 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 04 May 2009, 02:15 )


Re: Preachers - "So, you're trying to tell me, a rebellious PDF, on a minor, back-water planet is able to produce multiple dudes who are as elite as Commissars, in the same numbers, *and* can equip them with power weapons?!  That's ridiculous."


The numbers should be much higher than Commisars really, if you read the background. Power weapons are perhaps a little much, and maybe they shouldn't have fearless, but it certainly isn't ridiculous.

It's worth noting that Preachers in Warhammer 40,000 are issued with Evicerators, which IIRC have the same stats as the power fists issued to Commissars, but also roll an extra dice when attacking vehicles... in addition Preachers can re-roll their close combat attacks when they charge.

So if anything, Preachers should be *better* in combat than Commissars.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 12:49 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 04 May 2009, 11:31 )

So if anything, Preachers should be *better* in combat than Commissars.

But are these actually renegade Imperial Preachers running around with the Mossinians, whipping Eviserators around?  Or are they just "rabble rousers"?  I know they believe strongly in their cause, but is it Imperial Preacher level fanaticism?

I don't think the two-handed chainsword is "standard kit", just a weapon option for them though.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Epic: Siege v1.12
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 12:55 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 04 May 2009, 12:49 )

I don't think the two-handed chainsword is "standard kit", just a weapon option for them though.

Just the same as the Power Fist is the best weapon option for the Commissariat...

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