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Tau V.5.1 Army list for playtest.

 Post subject: Tau V.5.1 Army list for playtest.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:20 am 
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[Repost from Warseer, now the forum's back]

I'm gonna try and playtest the following this week. I think it's quite a representative, balanced army and covers all the bases:

Fire warrior cadre, Devilfish, + Skyray - 375

Crisis Cadre + crisis + Shas'O - 475

Crisis Cadre - 250

AMHC (Railguns) + Hammerheads+ Skyray + command node - 600 (BTS)

AMHC (Railguns) + Skyray - 450

Broadside support group - 300

Tigershark AX-1-0 - 350

Hero class spacecraft - 200

3000

It's worth noting at this point that i feel that the AMHC list is vastly overcosted. 600 pts for 9 tanks - is more expensive than a Russ company except i get less firepower, lower FF, less armour and no free commissar, for being a skimmer.

Also, my original list included stealths instead of the control node, crisis + Hammerheads upgrades but then i was running into BTS problems (I.e. Having multiple, fairly squishy BTS units). In the end i decided to take the activation hit and make my more valuable fms a bit more resilient.

With selection of this list i've come to the same conclusion as i did with my 40K Tau (With which i achieved some success at tournaments) regarding Markerlights. That is, it's just better to spend more points on units that are actually going to kill the enemy than on markerlights. So, GMs in this list are just a sideshow/casual bonus. They'll get used once i'm within 30 cm of the enemy (Which does seem a bit counter intuative for a long range missile but meh) rather than wasting points on easilly identifiable, priority and easy to kill markerlight fms.

Comments?


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 Post subject: Tau V.5.1 Army list for playtest.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:45 pm 
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Quote: (stompzilla @ 19 Apr. 2009, 10:20 )

With selection of this list i've come to the same conclusion as i did with my 40K Tau (With which i achieved some success at tournaments) regarding Markerlights. That is, it's just better to spend more points on units that are actually going to kill the enemy than on markerlights. So, GMs in this list are just a sideshow/casual bonus. They'll get used once i'm within 30 cm of the enemy (Which does seem a bit counter intuative for a long range missile but meh) rather than wasting points on easilly identifiable, priority and easy to kill markerlight fms.

I'm quite interested in how this aspect of your design works out... as Guided Missiles (not Markerlights, as they have multiple uses in 40k) *ARE* supposed to be a "secondary" weapon for the Tau in general warfare, not a primary weapons system except in long range ambushes and such.

Looking forward to seeing some games!

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 Post subject: Tau V.5.1 Army list for playtest.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:05 am 
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I'm quite interested in how this aspect of your design works out... as Guided Missiles (not Markerlights, as they have multiple uses in 40k) *ARE* supposed to be a "secondary" weapon for the Tau in general warfare, not a primary weapons system except in long range ambushes and such


I think you're right Chroma, however, HHs need a points big reduction if this rule continues to be the standard. They just don't match their points right now.

It's worth noting at this point that i feel that the AMHC list is vastly overcosted. 600 pts for 9 tanks - is more expensive than a Russ company except i get less firepower, lower FF, less armour and no free commissar, for being a skimmer.

This is exactly my point. Thanks for making it for me Stomp.

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 Post subject: Tau V.5.1 Army list for playtest.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:23 am 
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@Stompzilla,

I too am very interested in seeing how this fairs. I'm not a big fan of broadsides, being more of a mech kind of guy, but in general, your list looks pretty reasonable. Given the potential of sometimes not being able to use the Hero to its full effectiveness, I'd probably drop the Hero and Broadsides and look elsewhere.

@Dobbsy/Chroma: Costs are easily adjusted in the next round. List behaviors are not. I am, however, closely watching the list behavior.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Tau V.5.1 Army list for playtest.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:48 am 
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I've found broadsides to be amazing in the past.  Sitting a 4+ reinforced fm in cover with a 75cm AT2+ weapon is a deterent to most armoured fm.  

I'll take my chances with the hero at the minute.  A chance to have an early crack at 2 warengines of my choice is just too good to resist.  I can't think of any list where there's not at least 1 war engine to cause problems.  Even marines will land thunderhawks and or have warhounds.

Besides, other than Kroot there's really nothing else for 200 pts that i'd like to incorporate into the list that is capable of operating on it's own without needing supporting units to provide markerlights to make fully effective.


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 Post subject: Tau V.5.1 Army list for playtest.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:19 pm 
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Broadsides are an excellent and much underused Tau asset.

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 Post subject: Tau V.5.1 Army list for playtest.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:15 pm 
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Quote: (stompzilla @ 19 Apr. 2009, 10:20 )

It's worth noting at this point that i feel that the AMHC list is vastly overcosted. 600 pts for 9 tanks - is more expensive than a Russ company except i get less firepower, lower FF, less armour and no free commissar, for being a skimmer.

Also, my original list included stealths instead of the control node, crisis + Hammerheads upgrades but then i was running into BTS problems (I.e. Having multiple, fairly squishy BTS units). In the end i decided to take the activation hit and make my more valuable fms a bit more resilient.

With selection of this list i've come to the same conclusion as i did with my 40K Tau (With which i achieved some success at tournaments) regarding Markerlights. That is, it's just better to spend more points on units that are actually going to kill the enemy than on markerlights. So, GMs in this list are just a sideshow/casual bonus. They'll get used once i'm within 30 cm of the enemy (Which does seem a bit counter intuative for a long range missile but meh) rather than wasting points on easilly identifiable, priority and easy to kill markerlight fms.

Comments?

On the points comparison, I have always felt the Leman Russ to be slightly undercosted - a better comparison IMHO is with Predators / LR, where the 8x HH are cheaper, have longer range weapons and are skimmers but slower than Predators and less well armoured than LR.

Your comments on GM/ML are interesting. Effectively you are giving up 33% of the overall and over 50% of the long range firepower by not using any ML units in order to have "formations that will kill the enemy". So:-
- How do you envisage your formations working?.
- Did you consider adding Pathfinder Tetras to the FW?  
(The Stealths you dropped would have provided similar capabilities, but I understand the point on costs).

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 Post subject: Tau V.5.1 Army list for playtest.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:12 pm 
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Each fm that has GMs has a markerlight carryer in the form of the skyray, which is an added bonus because i'd be taking them anyway for the AA.

Rather than relying on pretty squishy and relatively expensive recon fms to try and get long range shots with my missiles, i'll simply be using the main armament of my tanks till either the enemy gets too close for comfort, or i close in on something for the kill.  Basically the extra 150 pts that would have gone into a recon fm that maybe would have given me the option to fire my GMs at up to 90cm, providing the recon fm wasn't broken/dead/fail to activate have gone into more tanks, giving me a more solid BTS and less vulnerability overall.

A small point on your comparison:

Predators get a lot more shots than the HH,
Predators also get ATSKNF, which is quite a big deal with small fms such as predators and Hammerheads.
Predators have an I of 1
Predators belong to army with strategy rating 5 and are able to be airdropped by carry all.

Another point of comparison would be the Eldar Falcon.

For 250 pts you get 5 falcons who are faster, have the eldar hit and run special rules, a better FF value and better, albeit shorter ranged firepower, at the expense of 1 point of armour.

I wouldn't consider a price drop for the AMHC to 300-325 pts to be too unfair.


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 Post subject: Tau V.5.1 Army list for playtest.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:59 pm 
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Oops, missed the ML on the Skyrays, and your AA comment is well made. However, as they will be skulking in the rear, my point on the GMs still stands - the (implied) tactics effectively robs your forces of up to 50% of their long-range firepower in an army that seems geared up to stand back and shoot.

I still stand by my comments on the comparisons with the marines. With lit targets, you get longer-ranged shots and still have the equivalent number of close range shots on a skimmer chassis which allows for creative use of pop-up etc to avoid retaliation and CC assaults. The predators need ATSKNF and better initiative because of their shorter ranged weaponry and smaller numbers (though having two activations is a distinct advantage at times). And I for one don't think the marines are too expensive - just not always used to their best effect (read poor dice rolls :p ). This does need some other formation to light up relevant targets, just like you need to pay for a Landing Craft to carry Predators, or perhaps Cross-fire to make them more deadly - the different formations use very different strategies and tactics to be used optimally  

The comparison with Eldar Falcons is more interesting because I find the Falcons horribly vulnerable, primarily due to their short range weapons and weaker armour. This is offset to an extent by skimmer pop-up and larger formation numbers which together with hit-&-run gives the formation an edge over the more expensive AMHC in terms of raw firepower, but in a straight head-to-head fight, I would bet on the AMHC every time precisely because of the better guns and armour.

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 Post subject: Tau V.5.1 Army list for playtest.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:50 am 
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This is offset to an extent by skimmer pop-up

Sorry to de-rail (excuse the pun) this thread but I heartily disagree with this comment about skimmers in general. The new skimmer rule kills skimmer ability by 50% if your opponent is smart enough to hug terrain. Popping up is pointless when your opponent does this as you can't see them to shoot. The only way skimmer helps is if the opponent is in the open and you are behind cover (hence my 50% theory). Now I'm not advocating going back to the old skimmer rule at all but the view that skimmer is an all encompassing balance to a lot weaknesses is false IMO.

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 Post subject: Tau V.5.1 Army list for playtest.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:15 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 21 Apr. 2009, 01:50 )

The new skimmer rule kills skimmer ability by 50% if your opponent is smart enough to hug terrain.

I've really learned this the hard way in recent games as canny opponents can almost completely nullify pop-up attacks.

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 Post subject: Tau V.5.1 Army list for playtest.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:14 am 
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I don't think it'd come as too much of a surprise to find out that i agree with Dobbsy and Chroma, as i have had the same experiences with skimmers.

RE: Ginger.

Sorry to go off topic a bit but personally i'd take Falcons over HHs any day of the week.  With 10 cm of extra move and the Eldar hit and run ability, on a properly terrained board i think the Falcons would take it.  Given that falcons are much faster they can hide much better will most likely get to strike first.  The hit and run ability lets them get shots in and then run off and hide again.  Not getting shot at is better IMO than having better armour.  

Of course it depends on personal playstyle of the people involved but the two fms seem to be fairly equally balanced, hit and run, and faster but at the expense of range and armour.  So, this is the sort of comparison that i feel makes the most sense for HHs and also the sort of price range that should be looked at for Hammerheads.


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 Post subject: Tau V.5.1 Army list for playtest.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:20 am 
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Well 5 and 1/3rd of the way through 6 tau games I'm beginning to favour no AMHC, a 4 strong support HH formation and probably 3 support choices per cadre (FW and Crisis being the only 2 cadre's). Of course lots more play test to carry out before the cut off time.

They could also go to 30cm speed too.


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 Post subject: Tau V.5.1 Army list for playtest.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:36 am 
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I suggested similar to Honda a while back (About the core cadres and support allowance).

My strongly held opinion is also that FWs should go back to 2 x AP 5, lose the disrupt and get FF4+, while crisis suits lose the MW shot and gain a MW FF, just to add a bit more depth to the army.  Support fms for the patient hunter and core cadres for the killing blow.

I will be testing the 5.1 version though, despite my personal reservations.


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