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EPIC UK Space Marine Codex released!
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: EPIC UK Space Marine Codex released!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:34 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ 17 Apr. 2009, 12:17 )

BA Assault formation cost as a negative- they're the same cost as the formation in your BA list? Except you leave the option of only taking 4?

My list is a list in need of love. :)


A recurring negative point is the fact that NetERC changes were not used, those changes (and the reasoning behind them) are sudjective.  The lists you write include the ERC changes, and you are a well known advocate of them;


Not always; I've gone with the original stats on Leman Russ Demolishers for the Death Korps rather than following the NetERC line, for example, and I've drifted away from the NetERC stats with my Rough Riders.

Plus I've gone for adopting the EpicUK White Scars list in its entirety, despite my reservations about certain unit types not having been fixed by the EpicUK rules changes... Just because I'm not unreservedly positive about the EpicUK rules changes doesn't mean I don't support them!

As to my specific comments here, some of the fixes I've suggested (CC/FF stat increases for dreadnought configurations) are not promoted by the NetERC.

I'm a proponent of greater cooperation between all gaming groups (That's why I sought out the advice of the French ERC & tournament players when developing the NetERC AMTL list, for example), not just a proponent of the NetERC.

I've repeatedly sought out help from EpicUK tournament players when developing Epic: Siege, and barring yourself have generally been stonewalled.

I think this Marine Codex is a great thing despite its flaws, but it's also a missed opportunity that could have united the Epic development groups, instead of fragmenting them.

epic uk does not agree with many of them (they were thrown out by Jervis).

Jervis threw most of the changes out specifically so as to keep tournament gamers happy (This is something I can confirm)... apparently it didn't work.  :))


Is it appropriate that you use this as a negative in a review? Is it even appropriate you are writing reviews? Most people have been content to just express a opinion.

Opinion and review are the same thing, no?

You've done the same thing for the Epic: Siege lists and I'm very thankful for the input (Especially on the Mossinians, which I was under the impression that TRC had tested them when clearly he hadn't!).

Are you going to write reviews for other lists or is the honour reserved for just EpicUK material?

For my next trick, I'll review your review of my review.

I give it: ****   Four stars.  :devil:



I'm not going to hold it against you but the exercise was ill advised, especially for someone employed as you are and with your aspirations. If it's going to be done it needs to be done properly, objectively with no risk of bias and then pinned. Perhaps someone should look into it?

I don't think you're going to get any impartial views anywhere... wargaming is a passionate hobby in its own ways, and people are going to have strong, and often polarised views.




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Jeridian
 Post subject: EPIC UK Space Marine Codex released!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:36 pm 
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What's the difference between an opinion and a review? Semantics? Grammar? A Star rating?

I didn't know reviews where supposed to carry any more weight than opinions, they're just opinions dressed up after all.

Bolter Razorback - is used a lot as it is - due to its usefulness against other scouts or OW against teleports

Dreads - armor increase was considered, but its problem is speed slowing down the formation - would going to 3+ have made it more use, probably not. its rare to have a tourney with out dreads used - just not by everybody


There where Marine players in the designing right?

AT 4+ is just better than AP 4+. It's almost always more useful to kill a tank than an infantry stand, infantry usually carrying less guns, moving slower and having worse armour.
Heck, killing the transport hurts the infantry it would have carried, as they now must walk.
Tanks also are easier to hit generally, as infantry can hide amongst them.

I have enough Tactical Missile Launchers and Firefight to deal with infantry, I need Anti-tank anywhere I can get it.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: EPIC UK Space Marine Codex released!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:46 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 17 Apr. 2009, 11:01 )

How has the transporter been used? (ours is worse in FF) In my experience without warhounds or thawk variants to suppress flak then its very risky as you have to brave the flak with 5+RA

Late-on it braves the flak and drops a formation in Crusaders straight in your lap; Very hard to deal with in my experience.




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dptdexys
 Post subject: EPIC UK Space Marine Codex released!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:26 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 17 Apr. 2009, 10:54 )

Maybe I'm a crap player (I think I am, actually, that's why I ask for help from tourney players when I'm developing a list) but I've had serious problems dealing with Thunderhawk Transporters in test games, I think they're a serious force multiplyer worth more than 100 points.

Aren't the T/hawk transporters 200 points with the aditional transporters at 100 points.
At 300 points for a pair and only 50 points less than a LC I've never found them to be undercosted or even feel to be good never mind being too good.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: EPIC UK Space Marine Codex released!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:27 pm 
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Ah I misread the price... that sounds a lot better.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: EPIC UK Space Marine Codex released!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:33 pm 
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Okay I agree that my star ratings were a little unnessesary. :)

But many/most of my comments stand as my opinions; Just because I'm a list writer I don't think that disqualifies me from commenting on others list writing attempts... and it's clear that on some unit types the EpicUK group simply gave up, and didn't even try to fix them.




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dptdexys
 Post subject: EPIC UK Space Marine Codex released!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:42 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 16 Apr. 2009, 11:23 )

- The Good.

Vindicators reduced in price.
Attack Bike increased in speed.
Land Raider reduced in price.
Terminators increased in price.
One Warhound Titan costs 275

Personally I would have put the Terminators upto 375 but I do agree that these are all good moves.
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Mephiston
 Post subject: EPIC UK Space Marine Codex released!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:44 pm 
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Quote: (dptdexys @ 17 Apr. 2009, 13:42 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 16 Apr. 2009, 11:23 )

- The Good.

Vindicators reduced in price.
Attack Bike increased in speed.
Land Raider reduced in price.
Terminators increased in price.
One Warhound Titan costs 275

Personally I would have put the Terminators upto 375 but I do agree that these are all good moves.

I vote that Dptdexy's Terminators should cost 375 to balance out his dice advantage. Anyone second this idea  :vD
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: EPIC UK Space Marine Codex released!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:45 pm 
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NetERC never changed Demolisher.


TRC (NetERC IG Champion) is strongly in favour of changing the Plasma Cannon stats, going so far as to change the stats in Raiders before it was published.



But this is the Internet! Your not meant to back down! LOL

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1907543

(NSFW)




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Mephiston
 Post subject: EPIC UK Space Marine Codex released!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:53 pm 
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Well at UK tournaments drop armies are showing up with Dread's on a regular basis, so they get chosen with 4+ save now. As ever ymmv.
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