@Warhead: i meant that the codex Saim-Hann craftworld has some restrictions that explains the discount on the wind host rider.

....On the down side, you may not field the Tempest Host...youalso may not field the Phantom Titan Host and Phantom/Warlock Titans are now considered Unique, as this Craftworld prefers the smaller, faster and more agile Revenant Scout Titans. Your Warlocks and Farseers may be mounted on jetbikes for no extra cost.

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Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

...Aaaah, I didn't get that at the time. Ok, I see what you mean.    

However, I don't think it disproves what I was saying. Malleus example actually shows what is happening and what many players do. To me it spells out that no matter what you impose or restrict (Saim Hann Windriders for no Phantom or Tempest Host etc) people will still try to get what they can... even if you do not agree with it. I think this method of enforced restriction is like roller-skating uphill. It can not be done.

Why would players adhere to these impositions, play these ideals when it is not their way. I think as players gain experience they mellow, I do not think I could curb the new player into a moderate thinker of fairness by corralling them into taking this or that. Let the players find their own way, they are grown up and intelligent enough to work it all out for themselves. Just like we did. I think v5 has taken a wrong turn in this area... Overall the NetEpic rules have been a god send and extremely well done but in this area alone I am dead set against it as I don't think it is true to the original game or fair to the players.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

I get it now Malleus, you would like to be able to transport Guardian Squads of six stands in a three model detachment of Wave Serpents... I'm a bit slow this morning. I had a fever last night and I'm still a bit out of sorts. (Man flu or something)

This seems quite E40K but could be fun, the problem I see is that the Wave Serpent is a bit powerful. However, if you take from the E40K idea then all you require are transports that have a fixed save and are not able to do what the real Wave Serpents do. Would that have any appeal though?

I have billions of new stats and ideas sitting in files but I have had no time to post them... or the knowledge of just where to start. I don't want to get bashed up here when I have so much else to do in the real world so I have been putting it off. When I have more time though...    

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

well the main problem for me is the phoenix host composition
phoenix hosts phoenix lords goes in the same detachment as the aspects making them 5 stand strong

wave serpent support card can carry 4 stands and for a transporter the wave serpent is really expensive, I can just as well take 3 falcons for 150 instead, the wave serpent should be something like 3 for 100pts instead, with 2+fixed save on frontal arc ...

if I do want to transport a phoenix host I have to buy falcon detachment or host to transport em in

and while some might think that the tempest host is such a wonder it really isn't, against most stuff in netepic it would kill about the same amount of stuff as a falcon host

approximated kill ratio of
2 Falcon Hosts vs 1 Tempest host == 900pts
5+ save foe: 10 dead  vs 6 dead
4+ save foe: 8,6 dead vs 6 dead
3+ save foe: 6,6 dead vs 5 dead
2+ save foe: 5 dead vs 4 dead
1+ save foe: 3,4 dead vs 3 dead

I like the tempest model (the old sm2 model) and want to field it, has nothing to do with saim-hann cant have it cause someone thought they only road bikes and listen to flute music or ....
So its more 20 falcons with 3+ armor and transport 2 against 6 tempest with 1+ armor ...

Please understand though that I would be most against doing away with the wave serpent itself... or it's abilities... perhaps a lesser transport is an option but fixed 2+ is waaay to much to ask for... you might get away with a 4+ fixed... maybe. Call it the Tsunami?.. maybe not.

The Tempest Host is a bit of a lame duck IMO. Yes, they are lovely models but depending on cover I would rather field two Falcon Hosts... or a Knight Host... (You can use 40K Eldar models and mod them with parts and weapons. They are slightly bigger but Striking Scorpions would be a good start IMO or Wraithguard).

The way I tackled the Tempest was to make them a two model formation, keeping them 150 points per Tempest. 300 for two... but the Host gets a  discount 750 points... thus bringing down the VP. I found when fighting against the Eldar they would always be a rich target option, to Harvest 9VP after 3 kills but would also limit the Eldar Players army due to their cost for a Host. Stats wise I think they are really worth their 150 point cost each.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

I dunno they are supposed to be almost impervious to fire from the front where the "wave" is
2+ fixed front arc and 4-5+ side arc and 5-6+ rear arc would fit nicely for the wave serpent.. then rename the current wave serpent to something else and remove its transport space...

but the phoenix host is more broken imho

I agree with most of the points Warhead is making here. There will always be people who abuse the rules of army composition to utilise the more cost-effective formations. The way our group plays is that company cards just cost whatever the, usually three, formations within would've cost anyway. Company cards allow the purchase of special cards after all, and don't need to be oversold. Additionally you get a free commander type usually. The windrider host for example has been undercosted since the second edition of Space Marine, and that probable lack of proofreading or playtesting has been with the game ever since it seems.

As far as playing with people that abuse a perceived spirit of the game when it comes to the composition of particular armies: it will depend largely on the group involved. Our group for example would refuse to play against marine players that didn't take infantry, or an eldar player that neglected guardians etc. If someone turned up with an army of just bikes or tanks or whatever in an army we didn't think was 'supposed' to be that way; we would probably ostracise them if they didn't change, or at least have some justification for why they have chosen their army in an 'unrealisic' fashion.

Wave Serpents are crazy good btw. Getting the shield back so quickly after release is a beating for the opposition.

first:
I think that the eldar host / support jetbike/vypers cards are to pricy compared with most other bikish cards which means that if I want to use all the bike/vypers I have I have to use the windriders any other option would just be flipping good points into the sea..

second:
I have a definite number of modells and I want to paint up them so that I can make some different types of eldar armies, that means that I have to use allies to be able to make multiple viable armies.
I could make maybe 3 distinct armies but that would mean 1 would have Lots of doomweavers but no air-support while 1 had airsupport and one had a nightwing, etc etc, they would be pretty boring, the only thing I could make I guess is a Phantom host as I have 3 of em... but eldar titans are not that fun even if they are a pain in the opponents proverbial arse!

I guess I just dont like the more ridgid eldar structure and the phoenix host. which is a shame as I love the eldars.. I realy do.. hrmpf

I'd actually be all for killing of the Phoenix Host and instead adding an Aspect Host comprised of
1 Exarch Detachment + 3 Detachments of Aspects, starting point at 350+ with a morale of 10
that would be so much more useful..

I just want you to get some ideas flowing as the eldar list is abit boring right now =)
and howling banshees sucks!
(well they dont but damn many inf/cav/walkers have a save even if its 6+ to make em "useless" in any tournament)
I havent checked all the armies, but I wonder how many CC monster dont have saves..

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

Now, now... lets not go down that path again or we'll be in for another lecture (not really) from the oldies (Original designers of NetEpic) again.

We are entitled to our grumblings, opinions and personal observations... and to discuss them. You must do the same with your own group as I do with mine. There is no insult or threat to NetEpic intended here.

Now, as I've said before and as you are all probably sick of hearing, the group that I am in have made some (!) changes to suit ourselves. If others here feel that something doesn't work for them then I would suggest that they try their own changes AFTER discussion with their group. Obviously these changes can't be imposed on new groups you meet later, like me you will have to start at the beginning again. However, if someone is looking for new ideas or directions then where is the harm. It may even open up new ideas for the (Core?) game itself. Perhaps curtailing discussion is not being helpful Zap just as curtailing choice through costs isn't working.

The Wind Rider Host was broken.  It's gone.  Build a bridge.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

*sigh* as the rules are right now I could just ally with the squat, use their bikers ...
but I'll shut up now, I seem to have hit a really raw nerve with the eldars ...

Perhaps like others armys in NetEpic, Craftworlds could be considered as codex armys and could only be fielded as core armies and get only standard support, just like it's done for SM codex chapters or Squat clans ?

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Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

...seems reasonable at first, but where would it end? What next... Codex Ork Clans? Oh, alright, that was a cheap shot but you get what I mean.

To be honest I normally make my Eldar Warhost as one Craft World anyway... (with the exception of Knights and Harlequins who I always treat as allies) It does makes logical sense, I suppose. *he said reluctantly and with no grace what so ever*  
Only in campaigns is it allowed for a player to take more than one different faction... but we roll a D6/2 to see just how many factions you are allowed to chose from at the start.

However, it seems to me that there is this over riding trend to automatically reach for the stick instead of using the carrot that I find makes the choosing part of NetEpic much less fun and not at all satisfying to play. Perhaps I don't like the idea of being beaten down.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Hi!

Hehe.  

I am reminded of that old saying...

"the more things change, the more they remain the same...."

The eldar army list draws a LOT of flak. It does now and it did then, when it was first released.

Every single revision has had a variation of this discussion. I'm still waiting on a favorable resolution....  

I always view the army lists as "suggestions". I agree that as you get older or "mature" as a gamer the more competitive aspects fall by the wayside.

From a design perspective the army lists have tried to even the playing field and thus minimize such problems by limitations and such of certain "problem" units.

Are they needed for "friendly" games? Hardly. But rules can't assume that all games are friendly, so they are there for those less than "sportsmen" like gamers.  

Can you win against those less than "kosher" army lists? Sure. I did it all the time in the old days. But not everyone is an expert, nor plays so much that they know the way to handle it.

I guess I'll stick a rule in the optional book for "free-form" army construction for those whom like it. But from the standardized point of view, after 20 years playing this game (12 years of netepic!!), the original army construction/ points values were in some cases VERY flawed and the only two ways of reasonably balancing them were either through points adjustment or quantity restriction. The game mechanics give you very little room for much else.

Also the newer revision moved to the "codex" approach fitting some units into a certain "flavor" and making some "choice" units more or less unique (quantity restriction).

All told, the rules offer a template for those new or just familiar with the rules have a "balanced" experience playing. If you are an old hand (a lot of us are), use the "free-form" approach and enjoy yourself.  

Primarch

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Primarch


The Primarchload
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Hi!

That sounds like a good idea.

No worries, as time goes by, I think before I give the final okay to the netepic gold books, it looks increasingly likely that we'll have another go through the whole thing....  

Primarch

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Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules