BL, what would you think about pairing up the Black Templars with "A Return to Taros"?

The general plot line (and that's all it is right now) is that the Imperium has to return to Taros, reason TBD. The 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment is given the cue as they were disgraced during the first campaign and they are looking to regain their honor. The Tau will find themselves a little more pressed this go around as the returning commander does not intend to repeat his predecessors mistakes.

As Mosc and I were kicking around the idea a little, I wanted a new SM chapter in there to replace the Raptors and eventually thought about the Black Templars. In this case, the current Tau commander is more aggressive than Shas'O R'ymer was (did I spell that correctly?) and due to consequences of the Nimbosa campaign where the BT's savaged the Tau, is out for some Greater Good type revenge.

I mocked up a Kroot Mercenary list that has not been playtested yet, but since it is a niche type of list, shouldn't be expected to have much of an impact. The going on this will be "measured" to say the least, but if we know who all the players will be in the story line, that at least helps flesh out the plot line.

Your thoughts?

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

As for revisions, event he best companies like GW have to do second printings and such.  Fix and re-release with the next printing.  Demand is bound to go up a little as more supplements get made.  

If the Chem Dogs are needed, I have a painted Chem Dog force that I have used several times. Jurys out on performance though.

It's a year on from Raiders and it seems the lists are in need of revision. This is a real shame; it would be better if a quality book like that was stable and current for the long term. The only way to achieve that is thorough play-testing.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

I personally have been doing quite alot of research on the Khorne Force and just started on the Squat force as well.

Rather than accepting what is out there, I am going back into the past epic games and getting all the fluff together. From there I am going to compare what we have, and then build a force and PDF supplement (although nothing near as impressive as what I have seen on Raiders). Hence I would ask that the squat list at least not be printed till people have a gander at what I may be able to put together this year.  

I agree with Reaver as well, the books are great and all, however they will merely sit on a bookshelf if the forces have to be changed for balance after they are printed. It would be great to say - "this list has had 200-500 games played and after 1 years worth of feedback & changes, it has been agreed that this list is final/official as per this community for the next 3 years". From this, we could nominate bi-monthly or quarterly campaigns to test a particular list to assist with this process.

Just some thoughts

Cheers....

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Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

@Honda: Do what you want with the BlackTemplars. Personally i would aim for the Nimbosa Campaign, because iirc there is not so much fluff about this other that the BlackTemplars where there.
My pet still are the Salamanders (and Steel Legion PDF):D together with my interest in the 3rd War of Armageddon

@farseer: I would love to see pictures of your Savlar Chem-Dogs

Hmmmm any idea where my Red Corsairs could fit? Epic: Raiders is already done and Epic: Pirates doesn't sound very Epic

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We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Something else to consider is which lists are "master" lists and which are variants. Chroma mentioned Hive War for Phase IV tyranids which at the moment is the most developed tyranid list but the Phase III list is scheduled for a Xenos book first.

In cases where a variant list is to be used first should the "master" list be finalised first, the "master" is assumed to be the first list published or treat the lists independently (so Phase III and Phase IV tyranid lists will have different points and potentially diferent stats).

Personally I think Iyanden is the most appropriate matched list to a Tyranid list in terms of known background, I've still got the card counter board game.

Frogbear, if I could make a counter-suggestion: Rather than NOT accepting what is already out there, why don't you try tinkering with the three Squat lists that already exist and have hours and hours of labor poured into them?  You seem to dismiss outright all the work that went into the Demiurg list by ePilgrim, Thurgrimm's list by Jaldon, and the French version.

In addition, we have an entire project going on where we are going to do our best to mesh the old history of the Squats (precisely what you are suggesting researching we have already done) and combining it with the existing 40K universe - not an easy task because of all the inconsistencies and rewritings and such.  In other words, why reinvent the wheel when you can be part of the project that is going on now?  You might not get your way, but on a project of this size nobody fully gets their way.

What you've described is an adversarial role where they have their list ideas, you have your list ideas, and then 'We let the people decide what is right!'     We could do things like that, but why when we can work together?  The only thing to be lost is some pride in saying this is MY list.  Not a big price for a good final product IMO.

If you are really interested in making the Squat project come together, email me at moscovian@hotmail.com and I'll include you on what we've done and where we are planning on going.  See if you like what has been done.  Let me know what kind of models you have, how often you can playtest the armies, and what particular talents you can bring to the table (painting, modelling, drawing/painting, scenario building, researching, editing, writing, or just relentless effort with lots of time on your hands). From there we can move things forward.

Or you could just do something on your own.  We're looking at having this project last at least a year before it is completed so you have plenty of time to do your own thing.
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As for balance -yes- the lists could have used more playtesting.  However, relative to the Swordwind lists the Raiders lists were much better balanced.  If the pro's had the same problem, I don't think anyone has reason to complain about the amateurs.  I think you're overstating the imbalance of the lists.  The Minervans have some internal balance issues but not a overwhelming win ratio (roughly 50/50).  The Dark Eldar are slightly underpowered still (which is fine with me).  The Necrons are possibly overpowered by a slight amount, we're talking tweaks instead of massive changes.

Compare that to the Feral Orks that had a 70%+ win ratio, the Siegemasters which were absurdly overpowered, and the Biel-tan list which underwent its own tweaks (no more Spirit Stones, change to Warp Spider transporting, change to Pulse weapons).  
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I don't think we really need a standardized set of rules and regulations determining how or when something gets published.  The free market will decide, trust me.  If people take a look at the final product and see something they like, they will ask to buy it.  If people don't like it, people won't pre-pay for it.  Although I do like the idea of saying X list has Y number of playtests, but I think you'd be sorely disappointed with the number of playtested games for any list.  I'd be shocked if there were 200 playtest games posted in the last year for ALL armies.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

I just want to re-state, when I said lists need to be playtested and finalised before production, I wasn't having a dig at Raiders!
I think the lists in there are pretty good, actually - needed only tweaks rather than re-writing.

But my concern is over a number of the lists that will feature in forth-coming supplements; lists with major controversy, like the Tyranids, for example. I worry that published supplements will be seen as a way of making a list 'final', even if it isn't actually balanced and workable.

I just don't want the whole thing to lose credibilty, that's all. Not after all the work that people put in to make Raiders the awesome publication that it was.

Regards,
Reaver

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Perhaps I came off as defensive.  I wasn't trying to be and I didn't take what you said as a dig - no harm, no foul.   You are both making good points - I am just trying to put it into perspective.  Nobody lets their Swordwind book sit on a shelf and collect dust despite the balance issues.  The same thing for all the fan made efforts will be true.  People love to buy a book - it is tangible, it feels good in your hand, and it is shiny.

As for all the works out there, from Raiders to Siege to the upcoming ideas, I share your concerns.  That just means we need to do a better job expanding the game (getting more people to play), playtesting (working with what we have), and reporting (getting the info out here for public scrutiny).

Ex. E&C made mention that some of the Mossinian stats weren't even tried out yet.  I offered to have our group playtest them next time we got together.  It is only one game but it is better than no games.  If three others do it we're in better shape.  People can VASSAL the Mossinians quite easily too.  I'm actually shocked more people didn't volunteer to playtest it.
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Something else to consider is which lists are "master" lists and which are variants. Chroma mentioned Hive War for Phase IV tyranids which at the moment is the most developed tyranid list but the Phase III list is scheduled for a Xenos book first.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

I'd much rather see varient lists in suppliments than core lists, because if changes are needed to the core list later on, being in a published suppliment restricts the changes that can be made. If it's a varient list it's not such a problem, as people can simply play another varient instead.

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

I haven't got a problem with variant lists first as long as the stats and special rules between the lists are consistant. Formation organisation and points costs can vary between lists for the same troops.

The Tyranids are having small stat and point changes with each version along with some special rule changes like spawning. I feel that to get a Phase III list almost the entirity of the Phase IV list would need to be finished. If you go the other way and get the Phase III list done then the only wiggle room in the Phase IV list would be points, formation organisation and Bio-Titan and AV stats. It's doable either way but it needs to be decided in advance.

Essentially there needs to be an agreement that the first list fixes the units and rules that reappear in subsequent lists regardless of which list comes first (variant or master).

Originally posted by Dave in Necron thread
Since we have this lovely web space provided by CS what about adding Errata/FAQ entries on the Raiders page?

Having bought the book I wouldn't mind if you released 4 stand alone documents, one for each updated army list along with the quick ref, and an errata pdf for typos and such. I purchased the book for reference, anticipating that the army lists would probably need changing.

It's not like we'd be twisting anyone's arm to use the new updates. But it would keep this community happy to have more tested lists.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

With Siege nearly finished my next supplement project looms.

I have two ideas I'm think of right now, so should my next project be:


- Adeptus Mechanicus & AMTL versus the Tyranid Hive Fleet Leviathan, in 'The Fall of Gryphonne IV' ?

- An E:A-compatible Adeptus Titanicus (Based on my Titan game) ?

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

This one, as the Tyranids are still too WIP to base a supplement around.

And you *are* the Master of Titans.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Bear in mind it takes a year or so to do one of these supplements.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter