Hello fellow players,

I am a little confused (more than normally    ) by the stats for Space Marine and Imperial bikes.

Last Adeptus Astartes Codex I got sez:

Imperial Bike: +1 CAF
Marine Bike +2 CAF

Last Ad.Militiaris sez:

Imperial Bike: 2+ CAF

Something in the back of my mind tells me it should be

Imperial bike: 2+
Marine bike 3+

Am I mistaken? Could anybody tell me what the latest news on that is?

cheers

sanjuro

Yeah, I noticed (and completely ignored) this too. I also noticed Squats still get 4+ Caf for bikes so I figure we must have some sort of grumpy and frustrated Squat Warlord writing this stuff in order to take over the 40K universe. (One in the eye for GW I expect).  

I couldn't possibly tell you what this weeks really real ruling is for these units.

Mine however are excellent rules and here they are for those who wish to know. For those that don't then stop reading now... Oi! stop reading!..

Imperial Guard/PDF Bike
30cm No Armour +2 Caf Twin Autoguns 15cm x1 5+ -0 (Independent)

Imperial Tech Guard (Extordinarii) Bike
30cm No Armour +3 Caf Twin Autoguns 15cm x1 5+ -0 (Independent)

Arbiter Bike
30cm No Armour +3 Caf Twin Bolters 25cm x1 5+ -0  (does not require to be independent)

Generic Space Marine Scout Bike
30cm No Armour +2 Caf Twin Bolters 25cm x1 5+ -0 (Infiltrate)

Generic Space Marine Bike
30cm 5+ Save +3 Caf Twin Bolters 25cm x1 5+ -0

Adeptus Sororitas Punisher Bike
30cm No Armour +4 Caf Twin Flamers 25cm x1 4+ -0 (Ignores cover, Elite)

...well I did say stop reading.  

Don't worry someone with a bit more... knowledge/credibility will be along shortly... maybe even that grumpy Squat, he'll sort you out. I hope you like Caf +1 though.  

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Squat bikes always had a CAF of 4.  No idea why they are so hard but so it goes.  It's what makes the Guild Biker Co. such a thing to fear...and the Guildmasters are harder still!  Even so, they still aren't as uber as Nobz Warbikes!!!!

Marine and Imperial Bikes CAF doesn't make a lot a sense to me.  IIRC Imperials were 2 (which is why no one ever took them) and Marine bikes were 3 back in the SM2 days.  I guess things are a bit muddy now Marines get a company, and you have Marine Bikes, Marine Attack Bikes, Attack Bike Veterans, and Scout Bikes.  I'd have no problem with Generic Marine Bikes going to CAF 3 for fluff logical reasons, but you would have to up the cost and buggar up a whole lot of other stuff....so I'd much rather just live with it as is.

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

Squats still get 4+ Caf for bikes

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

+2 CAF for Imperial bikes and +3 for SM bikes is OK for me. If Imperial bikes CAF goes to +3, Imperial horses would suddenly be less interesting.

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Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

Yup, I agree. Also Imperial Guard + PDF Bikes with +3 Caf is far too much IMO.

However, for me Horse Cavalry should require to work for a +3 Caf. My Heavy Cavalry are +2 Caf with a +1 Caf bonus if they Charge into Close Combat... not if they themselves are charged. Light Horse Cavalry are +1 Caf with Charge but better movement range. I also use Charge for Chaos Minotaur's too... for some added flavour.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

hmm, dunno Zap. Attack bikes are already more expensive as is, and they lack PD.

I would even favor to reduce the CAF of attack bikes to 2+, leaving all costs as they are right now. then they would fulfill a more supportive role to the generic bikes, as it should be imho.

3+ seems fair. for example eldar jetbikes cost 200 pts, but are skimmers, and more importantly, have 5cm more range (and i guess the shuriken catapult translates to PD1, doesn't it?).

@Warhead: Hey the +2 with +1 charge bonus sounds like a nice idea and makes perfectly sense fluff-wise. ill try this one out!

Hey sanjuro, let me know how you get on with it. It may not suit some people as it's yet another Special rule but if it works and you like it then make use of it.

Space Marine Attack bikes should be +2 Caf. It's obvious. I like to allow a choice of weapon for these types of units. These may take either a Multi Melta or Heavy Bolter sidecar for the entire detachment. Costs are 200 points standard.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Actually, PD is probably a lot better on bikes than an actual shooting attack.  With PD they can be on their normal charge orders and still get to use the PD (in the correct circumstances of course).

If I look at the current costs, they all look about right.  If we were to change the Marines bikes we would need to up the cost of the detachment and company, and then probably adjust the Chaos equivalent.  Cost would probably need to increase a lot too given the Morale of Marine stuff.  A company would probably need to be more expensive than the Eldar Jetbike host, so they stop being a cheap option for Marines too.  Seems to be a lot more bother than benefit.

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

I dislike PD. It's a very clever idea but it is too powerful and I don't think it fits with the fluff of PD. You also just made them a 6+ -0TSM detachment of Banshees. You want Banshees play Eldar.

"So, tell us why the twin linked Bolters on the front of the bike Marine?.."

"Ah, cunningly sir I wait and use these Twin linked Bolters only before close combat IF I am being attacked by another unit in close combat... amazingly in a feat of driving never before described I can fire in a 360 degree arc and even at the most critical point of my charge when I should be concentrating on chopping the other guys head off..."

"So if someone is at a distance do you ever shoot at them with these weapons?.."

"Wot?.. I don't understand the question... if they are far away I tend to drive closer... until we hit."

"Ah, I see... your taking the piss now aren't you trooper?.."

"It would be too silly not to sir."

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Hehe Warhead, nice prose!

Zap, I see your point. PD is rather good while defending, but attack bikes on FF are far better for that purpose. I understand you are concerned about the balance in the game. The point that confused me was that I assumed eldar bikes had point defense as well. If that was the case, I wouldn't see why they shouldn't have the same caf.

just my 2 cents, whispered in a very low voice  

Oh, I readily admit that the relative CAF of bikes doesn't make a lot of sense at times.  Why a burly power-armoured Marine on a hulking 2 wheeler has the same CAF as a flack jacket wearing Guardsman on a bike half the size doesn't compute.  Whay said marine has a lower CAF than a girly elf on a jetbike and half the CAF of a 4 foot humanoid on an open framed dragster is also hard to fathom.  Why some bikes have PD and others a shooting attack is also a bit of a duh?!  However, as it stands it is probably beneficial to the Marines as they get a a viable fast attack option and a 2nd cheap company (both of which they desperately needed), and game wise nothing is broken as it is basically balanced.  

So, might not make fluff sense, but does make game sense.

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

I don't think the game was that broken before it. I have played with and against all the races mentioned here and even used the light vehicles to excess on occasion but nothing so unbalanced ever cropped up during the games. If it had you can bet the other players would have made it very clear to me.

I think in this area NetEpic v5 went too far. I re-read the company cards and stats and remember on my first attempt finish reading it as I was so annoyed at the changes. Some of the unit compositions make no sense at all. (It's only a game but even so) I shall continue to use our own stats.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Actually, there were quite a lot of things that were broken about SM2...though the years tend to dull some of the pain  .  I think NE has fixed a whole bunch of the bad stuff and added so much more.  It is a huge improvement, while staying true to the original.  

You do keep banging on about unit compositions that make no sense   .  Can you cite a lot of examples so we can examine the cause of such distress?

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

Hi!

The problems with bike CAF and their balance across he armies is a very old one. One could "rationalize" it many ways, but in the end its just that, an expedience to assure game balance.

On paper a lot of things look "annoying" or "not right". But a lot of this has years of testing behind it. Things are about right balance-wise now. It doesn't mean it can't be improved, but I would require playtest data to change it at this point.

All that said, once the books are laid out and we do the final editing before release, things could and very well may suffer last minute "tweaking", so discussions on these points is still worthwhile.

Primarch

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Primarch


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