Sorry chaps but Eldar titans, cool as they are, are not cut out for the rough business of close combat. They are there to be pummelled and stomped on by uglier titans! (Spot the Ork player!)
Seriously though, I rather like the existing balance of eldar titans- deadly, freaky ranged weapons, but an underlying fragility. If you must tamper though, my vote would go on the lines of a high tech deflector/subterfuge type weapon. Just don't get too close to my gargant mob. Or else.

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Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

I´m a bit undecided here, as being an original Eldar player I have always cursed at the inability of the Phantoms to get close and personal. However, the Eldar style is unbelievable, awesome martial prowess coupled to a glass jaw. Since the Eldar titans are quite durable under their holofield (1+ or 2+ on most damage locations), it would maybe be a bit cheesy to also hand them a giga-killer CC weapon. The Warlock titan psi powers added to that (Doom- halving opponent CAF) would make them just new unkillable 2+ save CC monsters. In effect unbalancing the game.

I don't have extensive experience playing Eldar Titans, but I'm happy with the way they are.

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"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

Hey guys, you might want to represent your vote in this thread too.
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 14;t=14602

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Hey, look what I did. Ok, it's bluetacked for now but you get the idea. My one over riding argument against all your logical analysis is this...

THHHHRRuuupp    Hey, I never said it was a good argument.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

That sword is a little too big isn't it....kinda more no-dachi than katana.

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

*Splutter!* Oooo, of all the... ....respect the sword!  
 
Too big, ha! Too bloody big! ...why I augh't ah!

Big is all the rage this year. Since you mentioned it I did think about a naginata but I think the hilt is too short for either that or the nodachi. Perhaps it's more of a Chinese Shaolin Dao Broadsword. I prefer the Chinese styles over Japanese being a Lau Gar Kung Fu Master... tiddlywinks champion.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Musings of a maniac


Ok, there are some for and against this proposal and some as yet undecided. I came across some old Adeptus Titanicus Rules for the Eldar Titans and it described how close combat used to be carried out for These Titans. Perhaps something from this may help. It's not an exact quote but you'll get the idea.

When Eldar Titans enter into close combat their Holofield save is increased by +1.

Eldar Titan on First Fire is engaged in close combat has a 5+ Holofield Save. If it was on Advance orders and is engaged it would have a Holofield save of 4+ and if it was engaged or if it engages an enemy while on Charge Orders the Holofield save would be 3+.

Now, I know this doesn't solve the Close Combat scary Eldar running around thing. Which is when you think about it a reasonable cause for worry. But I do think there is cause for this Titan weapon expansion from the Eldars way of overspecialisation in their troops and in the games mechanics when considered next to other races. Most of the arguments for not allowing the Eldar such weapons are I think treating the Eldar like the Tau. They are not Tau, they are very capable in every ASPECT of warfare but they SPECIALISE in one area per unit. Hmmm, perhaps then it should be more a Close Combat Specialist Titan we should look at...

Niginata style Dire Blade or Witch Blade that uses both arm slots but gives some nice Close Combat stats. Like the extra D6 and two damage locations hit per blow... maybe even keep the +1 Damage.
Wing Weapon slots. - Some sort of Psionic Resonator or Generator that provides the same style of Close Combat benefit as the Eldar Knights Psychic Lance but on Titan Scale.

You would probably have to restrict it to Warlock Titans only to prevent people buying cheap Daemon Killer Phantoms and the cost for the upgrade PACKAGE would again have to be moderately prohibitive to again stop people throwing in cheap close combat monsters into the enemies teeth for little cost. Again if these generators are hit they should be very easy to destroy and maybe have some sort of catastrophic side effect like head or reactor flashback.

After saying this the scary bits still remain...

40cm charging Warlock Titan Daemon Killer. 2+ Holofield save or 3+ if engaged in close combat.

3D6+12 Caf, two location hit per attack, +1 Damage.

Psychic lance effects before combat: 1-3 No effect. 4-5 Targets Caf is Reduced to zero for the rest of this Close Combat. 6 The target must make an armour save to the Head location with -2TSM or be destroyed.

It can't shoot stuff.
May only use the Psychic Lance or a Warlock Psychic Power. Not Both! in a turn.


Of course these are just the wild ramblings of a tired man but someone out there may come up with a better way to fill in the gaps and obvious holes in order to make this a working proposal. I just like the idea of the model.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Back after a long hiatus...

Personally I am dead against giving Eldar Titans any boost to CC.  They are meant to be fragile ranged weapon platforms.  They have one weapon to give them a bit of a hand (literally) in CC with the Fist but otherwise they just should not be engaging the enemy in any up-close-and-personal kind of way.

Warhead, I understand your desires and reasonings but I really don't think it fits.  It just doesn't feel right to me.  I don't see anything wrong with the Eldar Titans the way they are.

If the overwhelming consensus is to give them a CC upgrade I vote for it being damned expensive.  Every army should have an Achillies Heel and I think the lack of CC-capable Titans for the Eldar is one of them.  If your opponent brings a CC Titan to the table and you're playing Eldar you either get off as much fire as possible before they engage your Titan or you keep it moving and hope they don't catch it.

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You know, if you can sort of muscle your way past the gag reflex, all kinds of food possibilities open up!

Exactly.  Eldar Titans SPECIALISE in ranged combat.  I can easily see the Eldar regarding the role of a 50 metre-tall warmachine being that of ranged combat only, leaving CC affairs to the more specialised ground troops who are more expendable than the massive warmachine.  A compromise to the idea that other races may try to engage them occassionally would be made and hence the Power Fist is available but otherwise they are ranged combat units.

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You know, if you can sort of muscle your way past the gag reflex, all kinds of food possibilities open up!

Sorry, I lol'ed reading the stats...your WTDK could rip an Imperator Titan in a single CC phase: first turn -> charge and Witch Sight (2+ holo save + -1 to be hit), 2° Turn, arrived in CC, anything engaged in CC will just simply die. Is-it really the way you want to play ? With such an unfair unit, I would just simply reject playing against such an Over The Top unit.

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Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

What?.. Was the posts title just too subtle for you?  

I knew it was extreme and likely to cause unsympathetic reactions but also get your attention. No it is not my intention to create a monstrous OTT unit. If it was then why would I be trying to evoke a form of discussion?


Ok, if the Warlock/Phantom is to be regarded as a gun platform then can you please explain to me why you think...

...Eldar Titans had a +1 modifier in close combat resolutions when engaged with non-Eldar Titans in Adeptus Titanicus. The description states this modifier is due to the Eldar Titans agility in combat. (It's old school rules but interesting to know what the original intent for Eldar Titans evolved from)

...Why do Warlock Titans have at least two psychic skills that help it in close combat but the stats do not allow enough of an advantage to back up the attempt and make it worth while.

...Why do the Eldar Titan Skills also cover close combat abilities when it is supposed to be a gun platform?

...Why is it that some players, Zap and Scream included, at least initially... thought that the Dire Sword was a good idea and needed for the Eldar Titan. A change of heart after careful consideration is obviously understandable and not the point. The point is that there are players... maybe about half the vote that did think the close combat Achilles Heal thing was a bit wrong for Eldar.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

1/ That's why they get Agility.

2/ To help it if it does have to fight in CC, when of course it really doesn't want to.

3/ See above

4/ I thought the Dire Sword was cool from a visual perspective.  You'll note that when we got serious I suggested the points value should be 200-250.....to make it an extreme penalty to get such an uber unit.

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

1/ Hey, fair enough if that's your take on it then that's fine. Just, there might be others like myself who find it a bit puzzling that the +1 to Close Combat resolution became Agile - able to move without turn restriction... doesn't really sound comparable even if they did use the same word "Agile."


2/ + 3/ Ok, so they are a close combat crutch... but wait... Why, there a gun platform, remember.
I actually think the skills sound great and full of all sorts of wonderful close combat potential... and then you try them, and after you get the mangled remains of your Titan handed back to you the first few times you begin to realise that although these skills are great the Titan itself is too darn weak to pull them off... often. You have to be lucky and/or your opponent unlucky for these to work in the Eldars favour. Most enemy Titans looking for close combat will be equipped for the fight. The skills and psychic powers IF they work MIGHT allow you to keep level but then again they might not. Sidestep is the exception as it allows you to avoid combat IF you can go first.

Right, before I exasperate and infuriate you all further I will allow that Jain Zah the Titan as listed above is seriously mental and beyond sense. Again, I wasn't being serious, I was taking the mickey (It's what I do).

Perhaps I should suggest more of a light weight fighter as apposed to a Kung Fu Titan Master.

Dire Blade
+3Caf, Hits two adjacent location templates per attack. (Drop the +1 Damage - too brutal, not Eldar enough)

This allows it to be more of a defensive weapon in that few/er people will be tempted to go charging off and gutting the first poor defensive Imperitor they see. (Hey, Imperators are strictly gun platforms why shouldn't it be allowed to gut one or two... kidding, it was a joke... ) It also allows the Eldar player a chance against units with better close combat weapons to stay at a similar but not better level statistically and IF the Eldar Titan does succeed then it will have a more devastating effect... just like Psychic Lances for Knights and most other weapons.
Simple, subtle and hopefully not as overpowering as the extra D6 appeared to be)

I would have suggested a ranged attack not unlike the Power Fist or allowing Block as described earlier in the posts for the Dire Blade but would prefer to see how this went first.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Exactly.  Eldar Titans SPECIALISE in ranged combat.  I can easily see the Eldar regarding the role of a 50 metre-tall warmachine being that of ranged combat only, leaving CC affairs to the more specialised ground troops who are more expendable than the massive warmachine.  A compromise to the idea that other races may try to engage them occassionally would be made and hence the Power Fist is available but otherwise they are ranged combat units.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]