Yup, that's off course it. Khorne 8 etc.

Ok, I'll go see what Thousand Sons can do for me then...

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

The concept for BL is to be primarily Undivided.  Black Legion made extensive use of daemon engines, but the idea was to introduce non-faction daemon engines with new models.  Also, Jervis wanted to get away from the "everything imperial, but bad guys" effect of chaos.  To accomplish both of those goals, he wanted to have daemon engines in the form of bigger WEs to replace the traditional chaos titans.  The Decimator and Death Wheel were daemon engines specifically for Black Legion.

When the lack of model production impacted the list, Jervis relented and allowed the chaos titans into the Black Legion list.  Also, the descriptions of the Decimator and Death Wheel morphed to a less daemon engine flavor when they were written.

3) Or is this explained above and fixed in the chapter specific lists?

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Neal

Thanks for the various answers.
(Can't we ditch JJ's influence now? This aint his baby any longer.)

I've spent the last minutes on the Thousand Sons list. It doesn't look quite finished, does it?
And what's to be used for the Warp Palace of Tzeentch?

And how about allies?
Khorne have 25% Nurgle OR Tzeentch AND 25% Undivided etc perhaps?

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

As far as JJ, you asked why the BL list has the shape it does.  That design concept is why.  He wrote the original BL list and was involved through a large part of the testing so the list sticks to his concept.

Generally speaking, we try to stick with Jervis' general design concepts because they are still the closest thing we have to insight into the design studio's thinking.  I don't think anyone's giving weight to much more than that.

I've spent the last minutes on the Thousand Sons list. It doesn't look quite finished, does it?

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Neal

Thanks, then the rest is with the champion... nealhunt...    

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

I'm against any "allies" system in Epic: Armageddon in general - people keep bringing it up in regard to the Inquisition lists, who are the obvious candidates.

Firstly, you can never truly balance an "allies" system that is open. How can you balance something you can add to any Chaos or Imperial list, past, present or future? Those lists are supposedly balanced, yet you're adding more options. Now, while you can probably make an ally system that isn't too broken (like the Inquisitorial allies in 40K) and balanced enough for a casual game if you're not going to powergame it to hell and back - but then, if that's what you want, what do you need us for? You can just take the TS and the WE lists and combine them any way you like! If you do so with the intention of making a cool army and don't try and min-max, it should be fine - of course, you'll have to pursuade your opponent of that, but if he's playing Epic with fan-made lists that shouldn't be a big problem.

Secondly, there are usually options for building the sort of combined list you want out of the "tournament legal" lists. Black Legion lets you mix formations with different marks! Something needs to differentiate the lists. We're talking about 6mm models here, if we let Thousand Sons or Plague Marines into our Emperor's Children list, what makes it different from Black Legion?

Ok, I'm not talking of Iron Warriors here. Ie not Marine personal armoury combined with Guard vehicle armoury.
My thought is more like a detachment basic Chaos Marines allied with perhaps ONE choice. And off course restricted as per old enmities.
The Chaos Squats ought to find a way in to.

All this to make possible use of a few more of the models on the plastic frames...
...but also further restricted to not give the army a new feature changing it's TOS(?).

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It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

I've got an idea on how to make the dreadclaws. They can be used in two ways, choose before deployment:

1. Like SM drop pods.

2. Like landing crafts, not making planetfall.

Each kill before landing, would destroy 1 unit but only give 1 BM per dreadclaw destroyed, not two (For the dreadclaw and the unit inside).

If not scratch built, I believe there is a Tzeentch tower from Man o War that suits the job nicely.

Now you just need a small miracle to have one come in your possession.

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Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

No one liked it? I thought it was a good idea since chaos doesn´t have this kind of transport...  

I've been having a think about the dreadclaws, and if they should be different to the marine drop pods.
Part of me thinks that, there are already rules for Planetfall, and that it might be a case of reinventing the wheel making the dreadclaws special in some way, with all repect to the guys on the forum special rules spam does seem to be the main problem with some of the lists out there.

On the other hand, I agree that it would be cool to differentiate them from Marine Drop Pods in some way (after re-reading storm of Iron, I think an Iron Warriors list definately should have a place for 'normal' drop pods). The only problem is (I guess) coming up with something that won't be too fiddly or too powerful. My own thoughts of something like chosing not to disembark on landing and then be able to make a 'relocation' move when the formation activates are (to me) quite faffy, as it would mean putting some stats together for the deadclaw, or handling shooting at the formation before it relocates in some way. So fail on my part!

I think that if Thunderhawks and Landing Craft can planetfall, then so should Dreadclaws. Dreadclaws are essentially Drop Pods, but with more maneuvering power and no firepower. I think the rules should reflect that.

1) Obviously remove the Deathwind rule
2) Allow "more control" to landing zones
> a) Increase possible landing area (e.g. within 30cm of the LZ rather than 15cm)
> b) Re-roll scatter
> c) No scatter
> d) Increased deployment range around the counter

I'm inclined to go for a) or b), probably go for a) and playtest to see if it isn't too good.

I´we always liked that solution (a). And still IMHO it makes the SM drop pods better which is good. The ability to put BM on nearby units when making plantetfall is priceless.

As I said before, while clearly dumping BM all over the place is more obvious, I'm not convinced that dropping your formation where you need it isn't more powerful in the long run. Time for playtesting, anyway.

Are the stats from the link in the first posting still the most recent ones?

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