Honda, I think that we were getting real close to these positions anyway.

1. We seem to be generally agreeing on formations of two A/c. Even Hena is not discounting this, so this is a good starting point.

2. While I understand your direction on the Railgun, this leaves us a little in limbo on the AX-1-0 TK specialist. 2x TK(D3) averages out at ~1.3 shots on target and ~2.6 TK hits. This seems a little light given the 'fluff', while putting two Railguns on each A/c is well OTT (with a range of 0-12 TK hits and ~5.2 on average).

The problem this presents is that to achieve the desired power against Titans we then need to add further weapons (like missile pods) making the A/c much more generalist, which in turn makes it much more desirable and harder to cost. The best we can do is to use a limited number of AT weapons (ML Guided missiles is a good choice).

3. We seem to be settling on the two roles you identify, though we have yet to get down to the detailed costings. IMO the desired range is 255-330 to allow three formations per 1000 points, with stats in the kind of ranges already discussed.

4. As a 'fluff-phobe' I bow to the others. However, it seems to me that the many different weapons available to the Tau in the 'fluff' and the desire to use all of them is one of the reasons that the list has taken so long to develop. Making them reasonable alternative choices seems a good way of satisfying the 'fluff', allowing each weapon to have more appropriate stats while not overpowering the unit.

5. Transporting Drones was not necessarily dropped, but fell foul of the whole Drone / Sentry turret debate. While I really like this concept, please could we sideline this until we have sorted out the basic stats?

6. The question on airborne weapons ranges is crucial. As Hena says, Bombers should have quite a limited capability at 45cm range that increases as the range diminishes. Equally, we need to take care over trying to make the weapon stats similar for both ground and air. In general the airborne stats should be shorter and possibly weaker to prevent the air-game becoming overpowered. (Note my railgun stats were a specific exception to apply a tailored solution to the TK problem)

7. The presence of the onboard ML (or not) may be one way to assist with the AX-1-0 problem, but see my response higher up.

Another more radical way might be to adopt these stats on all other railgun weapons and adjust those vehicles accordingly. After all, Manta and Moray are also part of this debate anyway. So perhaps reduce the Moray load out to one such weapon while leaving the Manta as a fearsome beast??

-------------------------------
Last thought. While developing the list and its nuances, it may well be worth keeping the datafaxes separate allowing us to provide incremental costs for a given variant or weapons load out. IMHO this presentation of the datafaxes is actually the last stage in the list development where we condense things for clarity and ease of use.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Nice analogy.

4. Let's be consistent about the weapon loadouts per fluff. If the AX has networked marker lights and seekers, then let's find a way to fit them in reasonably. It will help in discussions with non-Tau players if we don't have to say, "Well, everything is pretty much the same as 40K in the list except for these. We decided to add stuff because...".

So summarized (IMHO   ) would be:

- Preferably DC1 but 2 Flyers
- drop drone transportation (not everything has to be completely equal to 40k, else we have to go over the Thawk, Thunderbolt etc again...no way)
- if DC2 than only single flyers (but not preferred) and killing criticals
- TK AX-1-0 are rare breed (background) so make them rare and not spammable. (0-1 formation is my preferred option)
- 3 TK units is far enough, maybe drop one, but I hear so called TAU background-geeks cry...so...yeah . (you know which unit I mean   )
- same frame for all TS units (simplicism)
- no, never ever Markerlight on aircrafts.

I will spare the argumentations, they are all written in this thread and nobody cares if I repeat them.

my 0,002 cent

Soren

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Ok, some additional guidance:

1. CS is close to publishing the new list and I would like the Tigersharks and the Manta/Moray reconciled so that they can be included in the list. I really think we could put the Two plane/No WE version together for final review by 1/17 am CST. Remember, we are not setting in concrete, we are preparing for testing.

2. I am in favor of dropping the transport of drones to avoid the whole WE thing. It's cleaner and faster.

3. I am not convinced that markerlights on the AX-1-0 are a serious problem, but to come in a little light with this aircraft, rather than making it too effective on the first cut, what if we limit the ML on the AX to only working with the on-board missiles? Is that too fiddly?

4. Regarding the Ion cannons, let's put in AP4+/AT5+ and some multiple of that for the standard Tigershark. I would like CS to confirm that we are not stepping out of his Ion cannon stats for Hammerheads. If so, then we should adopt them and cut the range to 30cm.

5. Manta/Moray...sigh. Yes, I think the Manta should be a beast and the Moray approximately half a Manta without the transport. That's JMO, so let's talk about that quickly and it can be in another thread if needed for clarity sake.

6. I think the standard TS at two for 200-something and two AX for 300-something is a good place to start, especially if the AX seekers are at 30cm.

7. Per Ginger's point on TK weapons, I would prefer them to be a little lighter on the number of hits and then adjust the points down than have them appear as the obvious game winning unit (i.e. Five Aces) and blow our testing out of the water so soon.

Besides, if it doesn't appear to be a super attractive choice, but something that you take because you like the aircraft (raises hand), then it will be more likely that people try out other combinations in the list looking for breaks, but more importantly, formation synergies or in other words, formation combinations that provide the desired capabilities...which is what the Tau are really all about (personal opinion).

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Quick thoughts

1. I agree it is perhaps cleaner to leave out Drone transport for the moment, though personally I have less of a problem allowing a bomber to be able to transport them (Rhinos, Chimeras, Wave Serpents all do the same thing), and I quite like the option of choosing to carry Drones instead of some weaponry.

2. On ML, I can go either way. As Hena says, getting another formation to ML the target is more realistic and preferable IMO, but the way self ML will limit missiles to 30cms is also cool.

3. On the Ion cannon (and indeed all weapons that are Fixed Forward) I would prefer to drop the AA stat because it is meaningless. As the TS is a bomber it cannot be used offensively, and having a fixed arc of fire means that any CAP will be placed to avoid it. AP4/AT5 seems reasonable stats, so multiples can be used, but these are the same as the missile pods, so the entry will then become somewhat cosmetic.

4. Weapon ranges. I would really like to suggest having different ranges for the A/c, so weapon "A" at 45cm, weapon "B" at 30cms Weapons "C" & "D" at 15cms; forcing the player to make choices on how close to roam.

5. On Costs.
Barracuda is spot on IMO. A bit better than the Thunderbolts for 25 points more
However, I am much less sure about buying a third as it makes the formation a whole lot better.
Tigershark costs need to be greater than 250 to prevent the "4 pairs" abuse. We are going to make both formations 'punchy' and they should have appropriate costs. That said at 275 for example, two TC and two Barracuda formations for 900 points seems a good deal (and leaves room for the more expensive AX-1-0 as well).
AX-1-0 is much harder to cost. Even if made weaker to be unattractive, the addition of 'generalist' weaponry will tend to make this a favourite, so I guess we may need to use the unpalatable 0-1, or 1 per 3000 solution.

6. On the TK Railgun, if limited to TK (D3) we are going to need something else to give it the desired 'punch' as an average of ~2.3 TK hits won't cut it IMO. Heck you are only going to kill a single unshielded Warhound around 50% of the time. Bigger titans will need multiple passes. But perhaps we need to 'suck it and see'.

So my preferred stats look much like other peoples.

TigerShark Strike craft       (2 for 275)
Armour 4+, Bomber
Seeker Missile          45cm  AT5+            Guided missile, Fixed Forwards Arc
Twin Ion Cannons    30cm  AP4+/AT5+   Fixed Forwards Arc
Missile Pod               15cm  AP3+/AT5+   Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons         15cm  AP4+/AA6+

TigerShark AX-1-0            (2 for 325)??
Armour 4+, Bomber
2x Seeker Missile      45cm  AT5+                 Guided missile, Fixed Forwards Arc
Twin Railguns           30cm  MW3+ TK(D3)   Fixed Forwards Arc
Burst Cannons         15cm  AP4+/AA6+

Stats
TigerShark Strike craft
AP ~3.3 hits from 6 weapons
AT ~2.0 hits from 6 weapons

TigerShark AX-1-0
AP ~1.0 hits from 2 weapons
AT ~2.6 hits from 6 weapons (of which ~1.3 hits are ML)
TK ~4.0 hits from 6 weapons (of which ~1.3 are ML and ~2.6 are TK)

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Er... the rest of the very shooty Tau army will probably be stripping DCs from any large war engines... I don't think it should be the AX-1-0's job only...

TK (D3) should be sufficient as it *should* take multiple passes of a 300-350 point unit to take out a 600-850 point target!  

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Chroma, Honda (and others) as I am a 'fluffyphobe'   could you help me with the roles of the Moray and Manta vis the Railgun.

Part of the criticism has been the ability of the Tau to sit back and shoot, and as far as Moray and Manta are concerned, I would suggest this is significantly boosted by the Railgun. Can we get by without the Railgun on the Moray and only one on the Manta, or will everyone throw up their hands in horror and cry?

Put another way, should the AX-1-0 form a significant part of the Tau titan-killer ability?

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Well, according to the "fluff" in Imperial Armour IV: Taros Campaign, the AX-1-0 was *the* significant part of the Tau Titan-killing ability!

The Moray has no "fluff" to refer to as it was made to be a "Warhound-like" Titan equivalent for the Tau; it doesn't exist anywhere except in Epic Tau development.  I believe it was fitted with the Railgun to make it a Titan-hunter... so, the portfolios of the AX-1-0 and the Moray kind of overlap.

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Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

There is a specific rule that only WE can transport units that are not part of their own formation that monkeys up a non-WE Tigershark transporting drones.

2. On ML, I can go either way. As Hena says, getting another formation to ML the target is more realistic and preferable IMO, but the way self ML will limit missiles to 30cms is also cool.

This would be my proposal based on all of the feedback received in this thread:

Barracuda                 2 for 175
Fighter-bomber
Save 6+
Ion Cannon 30cm, AP4+/AT5+,  Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons 15cm, AA5+
Missile Pod 30cm AP5+/AT6+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc

TigerShark               2 for 250
Bomber
Save 4+
Twin-Linked Ion Cannon 45cm, AP3+/AT4+  Fixed Forward Arc
Burst Cannons 15cm, AA5+
Twin-Linked Missile Pod 30cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+ Forward Arc
Seeker Missiles  45cm  2x AT5+  Fixed Forward Arc, Guided Missile

TigerShark AX-1-0            2 for 350
Bomber
Save 4+
Twin-Linked Railcannon 45cm, MW3+  Fixed Forward Arc, Titan Killer (D3)
Burst Cannons 15cm, AA5+
Twin-Linked Missile Pod 30cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+  Forward Arc
Seeker Missiles  45cm  2x AT5+  Fixed Forward Arc, Guided Missile

Moray                 Cost 300
25cm Skimmer
Save 5+
4x Twin-Linked  Ion Cannon 60cm, AP3+/AT4+  Fixed Forward Arc
2x Twin-Linked, Long-Barreled Burst Cannons 30cm, AP4+/AA6+
Twin-Linked Missile Pod 45cm AP4+/AT5+ Fixed Forward Arc
2x Seeker Missile  90cm AT5+  Guided Missile

DC 3, Reinforced Armour, 5+ Tau Deflector, Always Popped Up, Planetfall
Critical:  The weapon capacitors on the Moray overload causing it to explode, the Moray is destroyed.

Manta                           700 Points
20cm Skimmer
Save 5+
Twin-Linked Railcannon  105cm, MW2+  Fixed Forward Arc, Titan Killer (D3)
3x Twin-Linked, Long-Barreled Ion Cannon 90cm, AP3+/AT4+  Fixed Forward Arc
4x Twin-Linked, Long-Barreled Burst Cannons 30cm, AP4+/AA6+
Twin-Linked Missile Pod 45cm AP4+/AT5+ Fixed Forward Arc

DC 8, Reinforced Armour, 5+ Tau Deflector, Always Popped Up, Transport (unchanged), Planetfall

Critical:  The Tau Deflector is disabled and is unavailable for the rest of the game, further criticals add 1 point of damage.

I don't want to be limited to only 1 formation of AX-1-0 per 3000pts. 2  formations is fine with me.

I think the AX-1-0 should have a self-guiding ML. Aircraft should be free to attack deep into enemy teritory without ground assistance and past the range of artillery. And there is that extra 15cm bonus if the enemy is lit up by allied ground MLs.

I also really want to see Morays keep their Railcannons. Morays with Ion Cannons are slow moving targets, with no Railcannons they lack that little bit of extra range to be effective. If Always Popped Up is adopted ( ) then the Morays (and Mantas) weapons will already be reduced in effectiveness quite a bit. No need to remove Railcannons on Moray at all. I'd also like to see the speeds on the Moray and Manta increased to reflect their true abilities. They are not slow moving Independance Day motherships.

The Barracuda must always have an option for 3 fighters to accomodate all of us who have already got 3 of them (the 4th was turned into an objective marker). It's just not fair otherwise.

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While I understand this restriction, we are also treating the whole mechanic differently because the Bombers do not land to drop off the Drones, which also cannot be recovered. In this respect they are more like a smart munition that is fired off rather than something that is 'transported'.

If we do indeed go down this path, perhaps it would be preferable for the stats to read:-
Weapon "A"
OR
4x Drones

Notes
If a formation of four Drones is carried they can be dropped as part of a ground assault scattering up to 15cm from the flight path of the aircraft.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Umm if you like these stats, why are both up-gunned on your proposed stats

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Sir Hemry Newbolt