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Considering Chroma

 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:50 am 
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Interesting opinions so far. I know that you are waiting for an opinion from me, but right now I have not had the time to play the list and any thoughts would be based on a first view.

I dont really have any strong objection to a lot of the decisions made by this variant, but they do seem to be stylistic changes that I just dont agree with through a preference.

I am constantly puzzled by the issue of the core Armoured Cadre and its ability to appear and then vanish.  :laugh:

I do think that this was added for a specific reason. In fact, it is something that I even brought up with Jervis and, to paraphrase him, his response was that even if the only reason for it would be to allow players to build the list that they want, and not get a mortgage to buy essential infantry, it was worth keeping as a core choice. Now, I do think that there are other reasons to keep it in, but it is difficult to balance.

I dont really agree that an 'all armoured' Tau force is not Tau...y (?). I admit that most of the background has focussed on the Fire Warriors and Crisis suuits, but almost without exception Tau background is written with 40K in mind. I think that there is a difference between 'the background describes mostly infantry Tau forces' and 'the Tau dont have armoured forces'. IA3 specifically gives highly armour-focussed ToE descriptions.

I think that my biggest complaint with Chromas variant list is that, on paper at least, it drops some of the flavour that I associate with the Tau. For example, Fire Warriors are similar to Guardsmen in many ways. When I look at the 40K forces, the things that I like about the tau and Fire Warriors in particular is that they dont have heavy weapons in their FW squads. This is different from most other races. I know that the variant FW stands dont have heavy weapons by name, but they do have a 30cm AP5+ weapons as well as a 'standard side arm', which (to me) feels the same.

I am also not entirely sure about the argument that the current 4.4.3 list is 'everything but the kitchen sink'. My view is that the Tau, by definition of the overall race characteristics, dont have certain options - barrage weapons, for example.

I do find myself agreeing with Honda. The reduced special rules is good. I will need to look at the ML issue closer.

As an aside, I would not expect any kind of approval from anyone at SG/GW at any time in the near future. We should now assume that this will not happen. My view that the tau should have reduced FF/CC values is not a result of JJ opinion, but I think that it works for the Tau, and makes them different from other forces in EA, and that this is an important goal.

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 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:25 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 06 Jan. 2009, 07:14 )

So Minervan list is completely useless then, I suppose?

I don't get what this means in the context of this thread at all.

I thought the "use" of the Minervan list was that it brought a whole bunch of new tanks to the battlefield; one could replicate a lot of the base formations using the Steel Legion list, but you wouldn't get the variety of tanks.

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 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:48 pm 
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Example: if the Tank Cadre stays as a "core" formation in the basic list, there's essentially no need to develop a "tank" list for Tau, as it can easily be done by the main list.

Does that make sense as to why I believe one should consider possible variant lists while designing the "core"?


I understand your reasoning, but I also know that a lot of effort can go into developing variant lists, all of which can be flushed down the "loo" if you don't settle on the core first.

I agree that there should be variants at some point, but right now the list is having difficulty focusing on the foundation. Variant lists are clouding the waters.

Also, "if" an armored variant list was to be derived, then you'd have to come up with something distinctive enough to warrant such a list.

About the only variant lists that I really see at this point in time, are Auxillary heavy lists (e.g. Nerroths, Kroot) and something I saw on the 40K Tau board, which had promise, and that was a Pathfinder sort of Special Forces type of list. Anyway, it seemed like an interesting idea to explore.

However, I am really struggling with the whole dual development paths right now...and please do not take this as a personal attack, it is not intended to be. I know that you are only trying to get something going on this list. Your efforts are certainly undertaken with the best of intentions, which I support, but the whole idea that multiple lists are easier to balance than a single list is misguided.

The only way to complete a list is to state upfront:

1. My vison of the Tau in the core list is A, B, C, etc.

2. In this list, that does not include X, Y, and Z

3. The special rules that apply to this list are: #1, #2, and #3

4. The core formations are E, F, and G, (etc.)

5. Supporting formations are I, J, and K (etc.)

Once the foundation has been set, then playtesting takes place. Not debates on feelings or desires or how you (the reader) would build the list. People either jump on board or they find another ship.

Once evidence is generated on the behavior of the list through play testing, then changes are made. Then you retest.

I still go back to the example of the AX-1-0. After fairly extensive playtesting by a number of people, the community had settled in on how the aircraft should behave. I will admit upfront, that I was in that camp. The_Real_Chris then came up with a challenge to support that the unit was too strong the way it was configured. The community balked, myself included.

He then played several games against a couple of opponents and demonstrated exactly how the unit was able to grossly influence the game. The evidence was hard to argue with. Changes were made and the process for improvement was validated.

That type of effort is exactly what this list has drifted away from. It has become subject to feelings and desires and consequently, now drifts downstream like a dead salmon. Throwing two salmon into the stream isn't going to bring the original back.

So Minervan list is completely useless then, I suppose?

I believe we are discussing Tau in this forum, which unlike the IG, do not yet have a core list upon which to base variant lists.

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 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:22 pm 
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Why no Armoured Cadre? Neither the Space Marines nor the Steel Legion are renowed for fielding large numbers of battle tanks. But still you could build an all-tank list with both.
So leave it in or if you still have objections make them dependant of the number of other Cadres. Eg 0-1 per Firewarrior Cadre or so.




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 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:56 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 06 Jan. 2009, 16:22 )

Why no Armoured Cadre? Neither the Space Marines nor the Steel Legion are renowed for fielding large numbers of battle tanks. But still you could build an all-tank list with both.
So leave it in or if you still have objections make them dependant of the number of other Cadres. Eg 0-1 per Firewarrior Cadre or so.

Well, you *can* take an Armoured Cadre in my list, it's just not a "core" Cadre that allows you to take Support formations... heck, you can make up a massive Tank Cadre if you want to.

You could have one Fire Warrior Core Cadre and two Hammerhead Cadres in support, it's just that you can't take *just* tanks in my list.

EDIT - Okay, if I put the Armoured Mobile Hunter Cadre back into the "core" portion of my list, does that make everything else "good" again?




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 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:02 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 06 Jan. 2009, 17:59 )

Sorry but I see this as bad offshoot of CSs lists. Main problems to me are FF and Stingray/Scorpfish changes.

So, if I went back to "weakened firefight", you could accept the changes of Stingray/Scorpionfish?  If you've got those models, they're *in* my list, they just do something different.  Is "Anything other than CS's setup" the deal-breaker?

What do you think of the "very flexible", and in my mind, very Tau-ish, Cadre building-block nature of the actual army list?  And be aware, the point values were entirely provisional and just guess-timates.




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 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:20 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 06 Jan. 2009, 18:11 )

I have bough 3 packs of Stingrays, I don't want to remove those simply because people mistakenly believe it causes gunlines.

See, this is one of the things that makes me nervous about Stingrays... people seem to buy a *lot* of them... they're a non-canon unit, but extremely popular... that just makes me think "over-powered/undercosted" in some fashion, but that's a different discussion.

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 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:26 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 06 Jan. 2009, 18:24 )

Me, I like them.

Hey, I *like* them too, I always visualize a "Robotech"-like swarm of missiles coming out of them...

But I thought you didn't like AP fire on tanks for Tau...

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 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:40 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 06 Jan. 2009, 18:30 )

However something to adopt from your list. Perhaps an Mech Inf firewarrior formation (as 4th cadre). 6 FW + 3 Devilfish?

Why wouldn't you just make that an option with a base Fire Warrior Cadre?

You can have the base of six Fire Warriors and upgrade them with two more if that's how people have modelled theirs.

(P.S.  My Christmas Tau still haven't shown up yet... *sigh*)

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 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:43 pm 
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The only way to complete a list is to state upfront:

1. My vison of the Tau in the core list is A, B, C, etc.

2. In this list, that does not include X, Y, and Z

3. The special rules that apply to this list are: #1, #2, and #3

4. The core formations are E, F, and G, (etc.)

5. Supporting formations are I, J, and K (etc.)

Once the foundation has been set, then playtesting takes place. Not debates on feelings or desires or how you (the reader) would build the list. People either jump on board or they find another ship.


Good stuff Honda.  It seems like most of the discussion/frustration is with what the Tau list should be, trying to rebuild the foundation under the house.

Your efforts are certainly undertaken with the best of intentions, which I support, but the whole idea that multiple lists are easier to balance than a single list is misguided.

I think the idea that Chroma is going with is that if you know ahead of time that you want to make a variant list or two, you can simplify your core list.  If your core list only tries to cover one or two styles of Tau army, then it will be easier to balance.  Knowing that those other styles will be covered makes it possible to make the changes you need.

AS CS said, IA3 supports an all Mechanized Tau force.  The question is does that force need to be part of the core list, or is it for a variant?





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 Post subject: Considering Chroma
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:45 pm 
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Quote: (shmitty @ 06 Jan. 2009, 18:43 )

I think the idea that Chroma is going with is that if you know ahead of time that you want to make a variant list or two, you can simplify your core list.  If your core list only tries to cover one or two styles of Tau army, then it will be easier to balance.  Knowing that those other styles will be covered makes it possible to make the changes you need.

That is *precisely* my point, thanks for putting it into words, shmitty!

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