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Black Legion playtest changes

 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:32 pm 
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Quote: (Lord Inquisitor @ 15 Dec. 2008, 20:31 )

I'd be willing to accept that a re-roll on the scatter might not be considered as good as the Deathwind (incidentally, in 40K, any drop-pod can have a Deathwind launcher and pure-Deathwind pods are still alive and kicking - they received a datafax in this month's white dwarf). That said, the ability to affect accuracy and/or placement of troops is often worth its weight in gold. This is a mistake GW makes quite often - for example (in 40K Chaos armies) the lash psychic power moves enemy troops and icons affect how much your own troops scatter when teleporting. Both are severely undercosted in Codex Chaos Space Marines - when Codex Daemons came out, both were more expensive and more limited.

Now, yes, I know just how nasty the Deathwind is, that said, you have to have enemy units within 30cm of your nominated LZ. If you've misjudged your LZ then the Deathwind attack is useless. Going back to Shermo's suggestion of increasing the range from the nominated LZ to 30cm: you can land your dreadclaw 30cm from the nominated LZ. You can effectively place your formation up to 15cm away from that, so that's 45cm away. You can then assault into base-to-base any enemy within a further 15cm. So 60cm total, as compared with 45cm normally. 60cm radius is an area of 11,300cm2. 45cm radius is an area of 6,350cm2. (Bear in mind there are only 22,300cm2 on the board!)

So the bottom line is that an increased 15cm range almost doubles the "strike area" of the pod. I'm not saying that's necessarily bad, just lets be aware of how much of an effect this will have. It's difficult to quantify how much of an effect this will have on the game, but obviously the Deathwinds are better if your opponent has lots of troops sitting right on the LZ, while if you've no enemy anywhere near the LZ the redirect will be better. Personally, I would guess the "redirect" is probably vastly more valuble than the Deathwind (but perhaps I'm just no good at placing LZs?)

Perhaps I did not explain myself correctly, my bad. What I was trying to say is that, once you have chosen your LZ, before the dreadclaw lands, you can move it 15cm in any direction before rolling the scatter dice. Once scattered you can place the dreadclaw in a 15cm radius. I don-t see it that overpowered...  :sulk:


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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:50 pm 
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No, I understood what you meant (although I would go with your original suggestion of placing the dreadclaw marker within 30cm of the nominated point - instead of the normal 15cm - and scattering from there).

What I was trying to get at was simply that you preplot a point on the board ("the LZ") and the critical thing I find is how far away from that point can you assault the enemy. That, to me, is the whole point of using planetfall, although of course there are other uses (such as crossfire).  

It isn't, necessarily, overpowered. Just realise that it is not quite as simple as saying "you're only moving the dreadclaw 15cm, sheesh" - you effectively double the area of the board that you can put your troops on. I quite like the idea of making a true Dreadclaw datafax. I think that it can be given a little bit of distinction from the loyalist drop pods and fit the background a little better. That said, we need to think through any such suggestion properly - and plus there'll always be the resistance from the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" crowd.


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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:49 pm 
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I think Lord_I's analysis of a 30cm Planetfall LZ adjustment is right on, with the caveat that some of the increased strike area will be off the actual board in many cases and not quite as effective as stated.

The alternate "15cm placement - scatter - 15cm placement" as a mechanic is almost as flexible and more precise.  It's basically a guaranteed 20-30cm free placement (depending on if there is an initial scatter, and in what direction - average is a lot closer to 30cm) with no scatter from the final move.  I think the extra precision would make such an option just as or more effective as simply upping the adjustment range to 30cm.


I suppose the question of whether such accuracy and/or flexible location is worth the Deathwind is up in the air but I'm inclined to lean towards it not being quite as good.  The Deathwind always happens.  The extra accuracy is still dependent on additional activations for the payoff and can be foiled by enemy action.

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:00 am 
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Hmm... That sort of makes the scatter redundant, doesn't it? If you like where you place it originally, that effectively means there's no chance of scatter in the wrong direction (at least, when comparing it to a normal planetfall). The worst-case scatter is still better than a direct hit* with a normal drop pod.

If that were to be the case, why not just say there's no scatter with dreadclaws?

*Yes I know you can't avoid scattering.


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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:37 am 
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Or: There is no preplotting the LZ. Just nominate in the turn you do planetfall where the Dreadclaws shopdl land and from there they scatter as usual.

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:40 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 16 Dec. 2008, 00:37 )

Or: There is no preplotting the LZ. Just nominate in the turn you do planetfall where the Dreadclaws shopdl land and from there they scatter as usual.

That's too much... It's even better than teleport.  :)


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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:41 pm 
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Anyone here also feels that the Banelord is a bit useless?


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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:33 pm 
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Definitely not!

The Banelord is the only way to do reliable preparation fire for assaults at long ranges and basically your only option for an early 12BP alpha strike that cannot be countered.

It is also a rock-hard BTS-goal which cannot be taken out in CC easily. Deploy it in cover near your Blitz and fire 4BP barrages every turn, switch to the Hellstrike if anything comes in range. I´ve rarely been disappointed...

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:50 pm 
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I've not yet used a Banelord, I usually run a Ravager as my BTS in 3k games (which you have to play differently, but it still tears pretty much anything up at 45cm), it always soaks up a pile of damage, and has a good chance of surviving. I think that in 4K+ games (and once I do the model) I'll be taking a Banelord, sure it's nowhere near as good as a Warlord at Range, but even an Alpha Strike from a Space Marine Landing craft starts to look like suicide when you stack it up against one of these things, and it has (as IronDeath has said) a good amount of firepower to boot!


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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:13 pm 
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Quote: (Irondeath @ 17 Dec. 2008, 19:33 )

Definitely not!

The Banelord is the only way to do reliable preparation fire for assaults at long ranges and basically your only option for an early 12BP alpha strike that cannot be countered.

It is also a rock-hard BTS-goal which cannot be taken out in CC easily. Deploy it in cover near your Blitz and fire 4BP barrages every turn, switch to the Hellstrike if anything comes in range. I´ve rarely been disappointed...

Well, to be honest I haven´t tried it myself yet (Hopefully in a couple of weeks), but I´ve always felt it far less powerful than a warlord except in combat. Perhaps I´m mistaken. Nevertheless I´m looking forward to using it.

Thanks for your opinion.  :agree:





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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:22 pm 
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Quote: (Shermo @ 17 Dec. 2008, 20:13 )

Perhaps I´m mistaken. Nevertheless I´m looking forward to using it.

Here's a 3000 point game vs Tyranids that features a Banelord:

Black Legion vs Bugs

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:25 pm 
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Quote: (Shermo @ 17 Dec. 2008, 21:13 )

Well, to be honest I haven´t tried it myself yet (Hopefully in a couple of weeks), but I´ve always felt it far less powerful than a warlord except in combat. Perhaps I´m mistaken. Nevertheless I´m looking forward to using it.

Thanks for your opinion.  :agree:

The Banelord fills a very important role in the BL list, much as the Warlord could IMO in SM armies, though the Warlord´s role is AV and WE killing. The Banelord is also 50 points cheaper to reflect its lesser firepower.

Head-to-head, the Warlord definitely outguns the Banelord and would blow it to pieces, but then the Banelord really should play to its strengths, keeping up credible BP threat (which forces the enemy to stay dispersed ... or else!), guarding the rear and generally being unassailable without needing any further support.

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:19 am 
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I think I'm moving into the Realm of Chaos now. It's about time anyhow.

1) One thing I'm not sure I understand is why there's so few demon engines in the Black Legion and why these are in the LatD list instead.

2) I can't also not understand why there's 4-8 options when the right ones would be 6-9 and 6-9 would be everywhere...  :whistle:
(Black Legion Retinue would thus be Lord plus 5-8.)

3) Or is this explained above and fixed in the chapter specific lists?

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:30 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 19 Dec. 2008, 11:18 )

2. Why 4 - 8 is wrong? I don't get this part. Lord is not a unit but character if that has caused some confusion.

I believe he means because the various "numbers" of the Ruinous Powers range between 6 and 9... so a "thematic" reason is all.

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