One will definately end up better tested than the other, that's inevitable.

Still, I just don't like the idea of having two lists for the same army in one book. It just feels wrong.

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What feels "wrong" about it?  It's just that it's never been done.

The Cadian "Interior Guard" Regiments, that defend Cadia and surrounding systems from within fortresses and entrenchments have a radically different organizational/deployment structure than Cadian "Shock Troop" Regiments going on the offensive.

Yet, they are the "same" army.  My whole point in this exercise is to show that the "same" forces can be played in very different ways by the nature of an army list's structure... and both can be fun and playable, without the need for an "all-inclusive" list that contains all options.

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That leaves *only* the Cadian list/lists to be tested... so, yeah, two lists should be fairly easy to test.  *laugh*

Especially considering there's no deadline.

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Once again - I'm sure you're feeling picked on here - but do you need two lists? The question is, what is going to make these lists really unique?

As far as the Cadian Interior Guard are concerned, the things that make them really different is the high proportion of Kasrkin and a close connection with the Ordo Malleus. Turning them into a rapid-reaction Kasrkin strike force with Inquisitorial elements makes for a really unique list and that - to me - is pretty exciting.

You need to set out what makes the Cadian Shock Troops different from the Steel Legion (or the Siegemasters, either), different enough for a whole seperate list from your Kasrkin-heavy strike force. Steel Legion mark II with Kasrkin doesn't really float my boat - it's just another Guard list with a few options switched here and there.

Now, if you have two drastically different lists in mind (e.g. a true Cadian Shock Troops list and an Interior Guard with Inquisition) then that might work, but if you CAN turn them into one list that does both, then you can keep everybody happy and certainly playtest it MORE than you could possibly playtest two lists - and it makes for a more realistic project for yourself (you might regret it later if you don't!)

The way I see it, it's your baby Chroma.  If you want two lists, do two lists. People will have a preference for which list they will use but having more options never hurt anyone.

Honestly, is anyone going to not buy the book if it contains two Cadian lists?

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Nah, I don't feel picked on... I've called it down on myself!  *laugh*

Okay, here's my reasoning for wanting two Cadian/Imperial Guard lists in the book:  During the 13th Black Crusade, the Imperium engaged in two very different styles of conflict: 1) Resisting the invasion of Chaos Marine forces and 2) putting down Chaos-spawned uprisings.  I see the two Cadian lists as mirroring the two Chaos lists that will also be in the book.

I envision the "Defense" list as elite, stalwart defenders, hunkered down in bunkers and fortresses, ringed with minefields and razorwire, running through trenches, using the deadly and reliable technology of the Imperium to thwart the Great Enemy.  A brutal hedgehog of well-equipped, brave men fighting to retain every metre of Imperial soil.

I conceive of the "Offense" list as elite mechanized infantry spearheading attacks against heretics and deviants, backed up by the power of Imperial armour and technology.  A "rapid response" Regiment that "shocks" its way through the enemy, crushing those who defy the rule of the Emperor beneath the treads of their tanks.

One is "static" while the other is "dynamic"... I currently don't see a way of combining the two that doesn't dilute them both into "generic multi-purpose Imperial Guard army".

As to the Inquisitorial presence, I'm intrigued by it, and have an "alternate" idea about how to include them, which I'll get to later.

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I don't see how the 'offense' list is anything other than a very slightly tweaked Steel Legion army list.

The Cadians are mainly famous for their 'Shock Troop' regiments... as an infantry based Guard force / high tech siege list they'd have a unique place.

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Couldn't the same thing be said about White Scars vs "normal" Marines?

The "offense" list is Mech Infantry based, pratically everything is mounted, it's designed to make blitzkrieg style attacks, with a variety of supporting options... there's a lot fewer Company choices, but their SR is one higher than the IG average.

The Cadians are mainly famous for their 'Shock Troop' regiments... as an infantry based Guard force / high tech siege list they'd have a unique place.

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I thought the defining cadian military facet was infantry - what would have been called line infantry or maybe medium infantry (certainly aren't heavy).

The challenge is to make armies that are infantry centric and work.

For the defense its easy, infantry are great defenders, slap in a few bunkers and emplacements (no treches I would say) and give them decent hardware and you are away. I wonder though as to the simularities witht he deatgh korps.

Offensively its far harder. Orks get away with it with mono use infantry through the initiative system. The temptation would be to rely on special forces karskin for the offense, or allied formation of armour. That would be a great shame as essentially thats the current guard list. If you could come up with an army that had offensive dismounted regular guard infantry at its core, supported of course by a variety of superior high tech stuff, that would be fantastic.

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No, the White Scars are quite different organisationally to the Codex Marine army list.

Whilst at the same time, I don't really see many opportunities for differences between an Armageddon Steel Legion Mechanised infantry army list and a Cadian Mechanised infantry army list.

The "offense" list is Mech Infantry based, pratically everything is mounted, it's designed to make blitzkrieg style attacks, with a variety of supporting options... there's a lot fewer Company choices, but their SR is one higher than the IG average.

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Indeed, the 'typical' Cadian army is one of infantry, both regular and conscripted.

The temptation would be to rely on special forces karskin for the offense, or allied formation of armour. That would be a great shame as essentially thats the current guard list. If you could come up with an army that had offensive dismounted regular guard infantry at its core, supported of course by a variety of superior high tech stuff, that would be fantastic.

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I too am confused. The Iconic feature of Cadian warfare is offensive hordes of infantry, yet neither of the two lists are going to reflect this?

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Seems so.

If i would do a Cadian list i would use the Steel Legion list.
- Then i wouldn move Storm Troopers to Core Formations and up the number to Company level.
- Then the HQ would loose it's Chimeras but would gain the option to take a Leviathan/Capitol Imperialis.
- Then the Mechanised Company would be reduced to Platoon size and moved to the Support Formation.
- As new Upgrade i would add 4 Stormtroopers (= Kasrkin).
- I would add an Sanctioned Psyker (15cm MW attack also usabele in FF) to all Supreme Command and Command units.
- Perhabs Rough Riders and Ogryns would be gone.
- I would add a Conscripts Platoon as Support Formation (same size as Infantry Company, but no ranged weapons and Initiative 3+)

There it is. An Infantry Horde style Imperial Guard army with some elite elements.

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Other than the Leviathan/Capitol Imperialis option, that's almost exactly what's in the Cadian Defense List I've put together.  It also gives them the option to take "Fortified Positions" if they desire.  The "Defense" list allows for "hordes" of assault infantry, if desired.

In all the reference I've looked at, Cadia uses both "Foot" Regiments and Mechanized Infantry Regiments... this is from references Codex: Eye of Terror, Codex: Imperial Guard, Imperial Armour I, and Imperial Armour 3: The Taros Campaign.

What other references can I draw on?

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Then stick to the "Defence" list. Really. Allowing Mechanised Companies in great numbers and you have the Steel Legion army list just with more Stormtroopers.
Look at the entry for Cadian Shock Troops in Codex Imperial Guard. You will notice that they don't have the "Mechanised" Regimental Doctrine. Only the Steel Legion has it.

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