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Black Legion playtest changes

 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:00 am 
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Jervis himself did suggest both the 'Heresy era Hunter' and the 'Defiler-based flak engine'.

AFAIK.  :cool:

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:34 am 
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I found it interesting to see peoples take`on things from more of the pick up and play crowd more than anything else. And I see that the 'chaos hunter' guess by them was pretty accurate then :)

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:55 pm 
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Quote: (hello_dave @ 27 Nov. 2008, 16:32 )

From reading through the proposed changes I do have a few thoughts / comments, obviously these are purely based on opinion so feel free to take with a pinch of salt.
Firstly, the Stalker, is this a unit too many? It seems to me that with the Desecrator unit filling the Obliterator's old role in a more balanced (i.e. your opponent can actually target them seperately from the rest of a formation, at least as long as there are no other vehicles) way, and the focus being on making the Hellblades a better choice than the Swiftdeath was that the Stalker seems a little too much *ducks*.

Well, there was a reason for each. The Desecrator is the more "fluffy" of the two, giving the Chaos list a bit of individuality and is a more "chaotic" vehicle. That said, there is no model nor any easy conversion, which puts some people off. The stalker, therefore, represents an easily-created model (you can just use a hunter or whirlwind with no conversion if you wanted). In the end, torn between a practical or cool unit, I just put both in. I've been fully prepared that one or other may not survive.  :sulk:

Should a defiler proxy become available, the lack-of-model issue may be removed (in which case the Desecrator may win out.)

That said, the fact that each formation is limited to a maximum of 4 upgrades means that the two AA units are unlikely to both be in the same formation and each can fulfil a different role.

Finally (honestly) I like the idea of making undivided a worthwhile choice. Maybe something like 'Marking' a formation takes up an upgrade slot, and some points (on top of Daemonic Pact, which maybe only gives the ability to summon Daemonic Beasts), once a formation is marked it gets some soft of god-specific aleration to it's abilities and the ability to summon it's Daemons.

What I was thinking was that Undivided formations should be allowed to summon any kind of lesser daemon.





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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:05 pm 
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Will the Chaos Dreadnought get the changes its imperial counterpart has been given?
Thats the 3+ Save for Dreadnoughts.

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:36 pm 
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Hi again.

Apologies if I came off over critical or anything, do expect some bat reps with the changes in the new year! Another option for the AA that was put to me in the pub after an early game with the Black Legion was to Designate the Obilts as light vechicles, one of the problems that my opponents and I see is that they have to put a lot of fire into a formation to shut down the AA from them.

I do agree with the lack of model being off putting for the Desecrator. I've not been playing epic too long (playing in the same group as Jeridian, those are my half painted chaos you can see in his posts  :blush: ), and am slowly building up a bit more confidence with modelling, if only out of need playing chaos. I've got some ideas for Defilers, and a bit of time off later in the month to put them to the test (we play in the local GW, so nice as a proxy would be it wouldn't be practical for me).

On the Daemons, in my personal opinion, being able to summon any lesser Daemon is a bit too good for Unvidivded (but think it would be great in a Word Bearers list :) )


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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:25 pm 
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Quote: (hello_dave @ 06 Dec. 2008, 21:36 )

On the Daemons, in my personal opinion, being able to summon any lesser Daemon is a bit too good for Unvidivded (but think it would be great in a Word Bearers list :) )

You got that one wrong, the alignment/daemon table reads like this:

Faction Daemons
Khorne Bloodthirster: Greater Daemon
of Khorne, Bloodletters

Nurgle Great Unclean One: Greater
Daemon of Nurgle,
Plaguebearers

Slaanesh Keeper of Secrets: Great Daemon
of Slaanesh, Daemonettes

Tzeentch Lord of Change: Great Daemon
of Tzeentch, Flamers

Any Faction Daemonic Beasts


With undivided falling into the "any faction" category, unable to summon a Greater Deamon at all and only Daemonic Beasts as Lesser Daemons.


Welcome to the Dark Side anyway!




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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:18 pm 
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I believe he was commenting on a proposal...

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:28 pm 
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Yes, I was talking about the proposed changes, not the current version of the list.


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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:21 pm 
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How about undivided being able to summon any lesser daemon types but no greater daemons?

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:33 pm 
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Great ... for a variant list like Word Bearers! (as has been mentioned)
:p

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:34 pm 
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I meant for the main list. There's currently no point at all in taking undivided.

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:46 pm 
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You get an extra Daemon Prince.

If you can
a.) demonstrate a more pressing need to improve undivided formations and
b.) suggest a way to do so that does not unbalance the list
I´d love to read about that.

IMO allowing free choice of LDs will easily overpower Undivided and make it the default as you can tailor your summoning to the situation. GDs were only recently redone as no one was taking them, which suggests that LDs are quite attractive as they stand.

Plus it would require a some extra wording to prevent players from combining Daemonettes and Bloodletters or Flamers and Plaguerbearers, either in the same summoning or in a subsequent turn when using an Icon.

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:52 pm 
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My thoughts were to be undivided by default, but forcing you to 'burn' an upgrade slot giving a formation another mark. That way undivided formations can have more toys :)


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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:55 pm 
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Quote: (hello_dave @ 07 Dec. 2008, 16:52 )

My thoughts were to be undivided by default, but forcing you to 'burn' an upgrade slot giving a formation another mark. That way undivided formations can have more toys :)

You know... I think this is a *great* idea for the Black Legion list.

In other "focused" lists, it wouldn't be needed, but in the "mixed" Black Legion, it could be cool.

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 Post subject: Black Legion playtest changes
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:15 pm 
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Actually in Wh40k you can mix Marks in the army. Each squad can have an Icon of one of the four Gods or of Chaos Glory (= Individed).
But then...they can only summon Generic Daemons.
This is why my Red Corsairs army list only allows Generic Daemons and that there are no factions.
I wanted to include factions with the inclusion of different Icon Bearers (one for Khorne/Slaanesh and one for Tzeentch/Nurgle)but this was seen as too fiddly.

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