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Aspect: Tau Units

 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:54 am 
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There are currently a massive number of ML options. Skyrays as well as being brillant have markerlights, heavy drones have markerlights, pathfinders have markerlights and more.  All these things are cheap upgrades for the tau, if you have half your formations with some sort of ml capbility it will last till the end of the game - unless you are mauled in which case it won't make any difference.  The cost for FW's getting markerlights are 75 points (and a skyray), 100 points (and 2 pathfinders and a devilfish) or 125 points (two stingrays or 4 heavy drones).

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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:20 am 
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Hmm why has the TigerShark GMs (Seeker Missiles)? The default loadout would be a transport capacity for 14 GunDrones (3-4 units in Epic).

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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:58 am 
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I don't get it, Onyx.  You're railing against the gunline army design for Tau, but you're also against changes that build vulnerabilities into that gunline?  GMs were the *opening* of most Tau engagements on Taros, not the entirety of the attack.


LitS - I'm not sure where you got that idea from?
Why are Seeker missiles used at all in 40K games then (ie an assault from Epic)? Surely, that would not fit the fluff from Taros (opening salvo)?

Anyway, as I've said before, I don't have all the answers here and I don't believe any one person here does. I believe the final list will have elements from many different sources.

I guess my current views could be shaped by the fact that just about all my recent games with Tau have been against E&C's Tech Guard list. Mostly Titan, War Engine and Leman Russ (not to mention Preatorians with a 3+ save + Inv Save!). I'm sure there will be comments about that not being an official list... It's a great list that we love playing with and against. Unfortunately I can't tell my fellow player what to use (and he wants to use this list for now).

LitS - both your army examples use the existing aircraft pts costs whilst most have voted for TRC's changes (minor point I know). Would it change your lists much?

Having read the fluff for Tau (wish there was a lot more), I find my views have become more fluid. I have a strong desire to honour the fluff (much more than before) but I also want to see a playable, fair army (just like others).

Oh well...
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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:40 am 
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There are currently a massive number of ML options

I don't think 6 constitutes "a massive number"... and adding 1 more wouldn't break the list. Plus it would make FWs and PFs more "choosable" and just that bit more interesting IMO. Heck we could always remove a ML from another unit - Heavy Drones perhaps??? Just an idea.

What do people think about the abstract sniper drone weapon stat idea? It would definitely remove the need for a miniature IMO.

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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:02 am 
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Hmm units with Markerlights (italics are optional upgrades):
Commander: (Shas'el and Shas'o) MarkerlightDrone
Ethereal: MarkerlightDrone
Crisis Battlesuit Team: MarkerlightDrone
Stealth Battlesuit: MarkerlightDrone
Firewarriors: Markerlight and MarkerlightDrone
Pathfinders: Markerlights and MarkerlightDrone
Broadside Battlesuit: MarkerlightDrone
Sniper Drones: Network Markerlight (for Controller only)
SkyRay: two Network Markerlights
Manta: Network Markerlight
TigerShark AX-1-0: Network Markerlight
DX-6 Remora: Network Markerlight

Curently i don't have acsess to IA3 but i guess Sensor Towers, Tetras and Heavy Drones have Markerlights or Network Markerlights.

So thats 5-15 units with Markerlights.




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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:42 am 
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Talking 40K again Black Legion?  :no:





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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:56 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 20 Nov. 2008, 22:15 )

On the issue of fragility with ML units, could we give FWs back MLs to compensate for other ML unit losses during a game?

Yep, that was one of the cornerstones of my proposal, lose unguided but give MLs to FW. FW need to be worth taking, and they usually have ML in the background and 40k. We've been testing this for a while, it's frankly great :) It gives FW a real role in the list, and makes them the core of the army, as they should be.


If people think PFs wont be taken why not make them snipers w/ MLs?


In the Forgeworld list (dunno about the 4.0 list it's based on?) PathFinders have better MLs that give GMs +1 to hit.




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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:52 am 
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@Dobbsy: Which comparison do YOU have for deciding which unit has Markerlights and which hasn't?

@zombocom: Makes sense. Firewarriors are the onlys unit which can have a Markerlight without using a MarkerlightDrone.
And Pathfinders  It should do something special.

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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:54 am 
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So let FW paqy for the markerlights.

something like +50 +75?

Makes them more expensive but cuts pathfinders usage again?

btw to get Pathfinders back in useage you have to give them a job. Now nearly everything has ML if it wants to (even tanks fit them). So why do I need Pathfinders, seriously? Even Hammerhead or Skyrays in armored formations should rely on Devilfish transported Pathfinders to get their targets marked. Markerlighting is an infantry-job...and this should stay imho.

Cut back the upgrades which provide ML (there are plenty of them) and you will get them back on board.

my 0,002 cent

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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Zombo - if you didn't have units better at killing infantry than FW they would have a role! Giving them the marking role is simly the same as cutting pathfinders. So FW get ML's, so to give pathfinders a use (they are the ML guys) we'll give them sniper  - presumably so they can go back to their role of being infatry killed like they used to be some iterations ago. Some strange reversal there.

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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:23 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 21 Nov. 2008, 13:13 )

Zombo - if you didn't have units better at killing infantry than FW they would have a role! Giving them the marking role is simly the same as cutting pathfinders. So FW get ML's, so to give pathfinders a use (they are the ML guys) we'll give them sniper  - presumably so they can go back to their role of being infatry killed like they used to be some iterations ago. Some strange reversal there.

Fair enough, I'm fine with giving pathfinders sniper.

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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:33 pm 
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It was actually meant to be a point of why not to do it :)
I think doing that is just pointing to a failing in the Epic list. Would the marine list been seen as good if Devs were the all rounders and tacticals the fire support?

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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:29 pm 
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As I mentioned earlier, I put together a Tau change proposal; I've decided to release it to the public and I'd appreciate any thoughts/input the members of the Tau Empire might have.

A Contraversial Proposal for Change

I've posted it in the "Other Forces" section to avoid confusion.




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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:15 pm 
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This is a perfect time to role-assign units in the list to what we see as their responsibility in the list.

Let's start with the humble Infantry of all the races:

FW - I really see these guys as the Mechanized assault infantry, like armored Panzergrenadiers in Flames of War.  Drive up, jump out of the Devilfish, and shoot the stuffing out of one formation.  FW are infantry-killers, with a little ability against tanks IF they have a markerlight.  I believe there was a change to the rules in 40k5e that makes Markerdrones more popular (they can now move and mark targets?), so FW *could* be given their MLs back.  FW with MLs steps on the toes of Pathfinders, though.

Pathfinders - These are your ambushers (or act as heavy fire support for a FW formation).  Their most important ability is co-fire.  Sure, they can have sniper rifles and sniper drones, but PF aren't really there to kill enemy infantry (that's what FW do).  Pathfinders are there to light targets (particularly tanks).  Markerlit railguns and/or seeker missiles are a tank's worst nightmare.

Kroot - Introduced as a 'speedbump' to prevent the enemy from assaulting valuable Fire Warriors, kroot are the masters of infiltration and jungle warfare.  Excellent CC troops, Kroot can be used offensively if there's enough cover for them to move through, or can hold ground like no-one's business.

Vespid - introduced as a speedbump unit to help Crisis suits deal with power-armored opponents, vespid are lightly armored and fast moving, but are dangerous in FF and CC.  Also usable as a mobile reserve, vespid can keep up with (actually, move faster than) Crisis suits, even moving through terrain thought to be impassable.

Gue'vesa - The human auxiliaries are yet another speedbump unit.  They are residents of the area that they are defending, and are simply there to pin attackers in place until their Tau masters can arrive to drive off the attackers.  Gue'vesa lack the heavy weapons of their IG counterparts, but are occasionally granted some Pulse rifles or carbines (basically, they're siege infantry).  Gue'vesa are garrison units, and should have the numbers to hold an objective (since Tau don't hold objectives).

Stealth teams - The 'lone wolves' of the Tau, Stealth teams are given free reign to act within very broadly-defined objectives.  As long as the objectives are met, the Tau don't care *how* it got done.  These guys are the Rangers of the Tau, raiding and rampaging through the backfield of the enemy's battle line.

Crisis teams - Jacks of all trades, crisis teams jump from crisis to crisis, handling whatever the local forces can't.  Crisis suits can be deadly in a FF, since they carry bigger guns than FW (lots of marine-killers).  They are also the only MW attack of canon Tau units (Forgeworld did create a MW Hammerhead, but that's currently section 6).

Hammerhead - HHeads are the main battle tank of the Tau, armed with either an Ion cannon or a Railgun.  Unfortunately, the Ion cannon is nowhere near as useful in E:A games as it is in 40k (where it's primarily a Marine removal tool), with it's lesser range and AT to-hit.  we could follow the Marine example and make the Ionhead version with different secondary weapons, but that actually makes it even more of an infantry-killer (useful for supporting the Railheads, but FW kill infantry).  I'm not sure how to fix this issue.  FW created a number of alternate weapons fits, most of which are too short-ranged to be useful in E:A.  The best option of the set is the Fusion cannons, but that's only a 30cm MW4+ shot... They'd have to be used in a separate formation to be useful.

Skyray - The Tau's AA vehicle, it has good secondary AT abilities.  probably the best AA unit in the game.

Stingray - intended to be a Tau artillery vehicle, comparable to the Marine Whirlwind.  Like other artillery, it's used to put blast markers onto troops at long distances, slowing them down through failed activations.  Because it's not a BP weapon, it can actually be used in very close support of Tau troops with no risk to the Tau.

Tetras - like the Pathfinders crewing them, tetras exist to mark targets.

Piranhas - a light scouting unit without a markerlight, Piranhas harass enemy infantry or wait to capture objectives.  (I don't see a good role for Piranhas)

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 Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:07 am 
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What would be the effect of making the GMs a One Shot weapon?  If I recall correctly, a Tau vehicle can hold 4 Seeker Missiles.  That is enough for about one barrage in EpicA, not enough for continuos fire.  

That would really go along way to emulating the GMs being used to soften up the target.  The Tau player could unleash the fury on the first turn of many One Shot GM attacks, and then follow it up in subsequent rounds.  Dedicated GM vehicles would then have a nice roll to fill in the army.


A question regarding the Moray.  Did it come into existence before the AX-1-0?  They really seem to fill the same niche, but the AX-1-0 does it in a way that feels more Tau-like to me.  The Tau seem to have a principle of sentrys fighting holding actions until a reaction force can be brought to bear.  Well, aircraft mounted TK fit that bill perfectly.  They can be sent where needed and don't have to be pre-positioned for max effectiveness.  I think that the Tau don't favor Titans (or other WEs for that matter) as it is something of an all your eggs in one basket strategy, which seems anathema to the Tau combat doctrine.


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