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Aspect: Tau Units

Moscovian

Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 4:25 pm

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Another suggestion would be to allow Support Craft to be hit by AA weapons in addition to other weapons. Combine that with shortening the ranges as aircraft have, plus tweaking the weapon loads on the units themselves and you may have solved the problem. Personally I think the Manta and Moray are overgunned for any status - aircraft, support craft, or skimmer.

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zombocom

Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:05 pm

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Quote: (Onyx @ 12 Nov. 2008, 11:47 )

How much was the points value of the Manta?

It doesn't sound like it had the value of a 650pt+ unit.

Can aircraft claim objectives on the turn that they land ("Aircraft which have landed may not capture an objective on the same turn that it lands. However, a landed aircraft may immediately contest an objective" - 2008 Errata)?

650 points. It would have been more effective but it missed with the TK shot both chances it got to fire...

Sorry, I meant contest an objective. That's why I shouldn't post when sleepy.

Overall, it felt like playing against a tooled up SMLC. It's definately going to need more tests to prove one way or t'other.

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 9:13 pm

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Quote: (zombocom @ 12 Nov. 2008, 09:05 )

Overall, it felt like playing against a tooled up SMLC.

Well, that is the (Forgeworld) opinion as to what the Manta should be, based on the 40k/Apoc rules for it. A better question is, did that feel about *right* for what the Manta is?

Moscovian: You are looking at the FW weapons for the Manta, right? I don't think the down-gunned Manta is out of line for either a 'Skimmer-always-popped-up,' Support Craft, or bomber (with ranges reduced to match the rest of the aircraft).

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zombocom

Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:50 am

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Again, it's difficult to say after one game! I envision the manta as more of a transport than a gunboat, and that's how it played out. Of course that's mostly due to the downgunning rather than being a bomber...

Hopefully I can get another test in this week.

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Onyx

Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:55 am

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A few notes about Manta's from reading IA3.

"The Manta is the Tau's closest equivalent to the Imperium's Titans or Ork Gargants, and carries comparable firepower."

As well as it's own cockpit, each Manta also contains a sophisticated command bridge. From here a Tau commander can oversee battlefield operations."
IA3 pg208

Fw say quite clearly that Mantas are Titan equivalents. They are also able to control the battlefields and as such could have a 100pt upgrade to have the Tau Supreme commander ability added (rather than/in addition to the Scorpionfish upgrade).

A Manta attacked the Elysians at Hydro Plant 23-30. It swooped down low and pinned the defenders down using it's Burst Cannons (pg119) allowing other ground forces to move in to attack (a combined assault?). This image does not fit with an aircraft straffing attack but a hovering sustained attack.

"supported by long ranged fire from Mantas hovering on the distant horizon"
IA3 pg146.

I really have to say that the present Support Craft rule depicts IA3's desriptions of Mantas much more closely than using aircraft Bomber rules.

As to why Mantas weren't used to kill the Warhounds, they were probably Ã‚Â being used to ferry troops/equipment around. The AX-1-0 were fine for killing Warhounds but if there had been Battle Titans present, I believe the Mantas would've been there too. IA3 clearly states that Mantas are front line fighting machines.
"It is well armed and armoured for use in frontline combat, where it is expected to deploy as an attack craft."
pg208.

IA3 is hard to use as a guide to all Tau battle tactics. This is one short war (over in 90 days) where the Tau were on the defensive and outnumbered. How many games of Epic are played under those conditions?

It is a great guide as to how Tau conduct combat.
Having read IA3, I'm have a little confusion though. The Tau are ALL about long range firepower. They are a gun line army. That is how the fight. It's a pity that some consider it boring but it's a fact, that's how they fight. They stand-off and long range and pummel the target, only sending in the Crisis Suits once the defence has been smashed.

My confusion is how to recreate their standoff tactics and keep them interesting enough for people to play against (many here keep using the word boring).

I also have to say that for all the calls here about Fire warriors being the majority of the Tau military, they are mentioned much less than Hammerheads, Battle suits and pathfinders. Even Sentry Turrets are used often to defend (Hydro Plant23-30 is littered with Sentry Turrets using stealth technology to prevent their detection until they open fire) important targets and whilst the Firewarriors didn't defend the plant themselves, the Tau used Kroot and Human Aux to garrison. Important stuctures/objectives are garrisoned by Tau (allies).

I'd happily keep AMHC's as a core formation having read IA3 (Hammerheads are used in just about all engagments except stealth stuff).

The Sensor Tower is obviously a VERY important unit to the Tau and I'd like to see this unit take over from Sentry Turrets (of course there's no mini available... :sigh:

).

I don't envy you CS as you try to marry the fluff and playability.
After reading IA3 I have to say that I generally agree with where the list was (with a few adjustments) rather than a complete re-write. Splitting the list into Armour/specialist units etc is possible (and maybe more balanced) but in IA3 the Tau are all about combined arms and working as a team. How would seperate army lists depict this?

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:02 am

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Quote: (Onyx @ 14 Nov. 2008, 08:55 )

A few notes about Manta's from reading IA3.

"The Manta is the Tau's closest equivalent to the Imperium's Titans or Ork Gargants, and carries comparable firepower."

As well as it's own cockpit, each Manta also contains a sophisticated command bridge. From here a Tau commander can oversee battlefield operations."

IA3 pg208

Fw say quite clearly that Mantas are Titan equivalents.
Yes indeed, the Manta carries comparable firepower to an Imperial Titan... specifically, comparable to a slightly weaker Reaver Titan.

The SG/NetEA Manta stats are superior to a Warlord Titan.

I'd happily keep AMHC's as a core formation having read IA3

It's notable that FW removed the AMHC formation from the army list which is contained in IA3.

IA3 clearly states that Mantas are front line fighting machines.

Noone's saying that they're not... they wouldn't be wanted in the army list if they weren't.

I also have to say that for all the calls here about Fire warriors being the majority of the Tau military, they are mentioned much less than Hammerheads, Battle suits and pathfinders.

A- It's a desert war, those naturally emphasise tanks.
B- Several major engagements in IA:3 involve Fire Warriors as the core of the combat force; The Crisis/Stealth/Pathfinder-heavy engagements tend to be small skirmishes or raids more appropriate in size to games of Warhammer 40,000 than Epic.

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Onyx

Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:10 am

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Noone's saying that they're not... they wouldn't be wanted in the army list if they weren't.

Unfortunately, aircraft do not represent front line fighting machines well.

With the stats in front of me, I could see a Manta having-
War Engine - 4+ Armour - 20cm movement - FF4+
Twin Heavy Railguns MW2+ TK(D3) (I'd rather 2x MW3+ TKD3 but that is probably too much)
2x Heavy Ion Phalanx 2 or 3x AP3+/AT3+
2x Seeker (Tracer?) Missile AT6+ (MW6+) Guided Missile
4x Twin Linked Burst Cannons Ã‚Â 15cm AP4+/AA5+ OR 8x Burst Cannons 15cm AP5+/AA6+
Twin Linked Missile Pods AP4+/AT4+

I've left ranges off some of the weapons because it would depend on what version of Support Craft/Aircraft rules were used.

DC 6. Deflector Shield (5+ Inv Save). Critical hit? I would basically copy the Reaver/Warlord critical.

Support Craft (whatever form it takes), RA, Fearless, Markerlight.
Tau Supreme Commander upgrade for 100pts.

Final points cost would come down to Support Craft.

One other thing, Railgun submunitions are self guiding...
Why wouldn't GM's be self guiding aswell? This would obviously mean they could be fired without a Markerlight but would be more accurate with a Markerlit target (ie no need to change the present rules for GM's).

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Moscovian

Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:32 pm

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Splitting the list into Armour/specialist units etc is possible (and maybe more balanced) but in IA3 the Tau are all about combined arms and working as a team. How would seperate army lists depict this?

The same way that realistically you wouldn't just see an Imperial Guard Minervan Legion fighting without a Steel Legion type force alongside of it in a massive conflict. Or an Elysian force fighting for a sustained period of time. Larger, sustained conflicts will deal with more comprehensive, combined arms forces for any side. The further you drill down into the conflict, the more specialized things become from your perspective. It's not like the Tau have a strict code of mandating X number of drones for every 10 Firewarriors, or Y number of Hammerheads for each Crisis Suit. Besides, a split-up list would still have a LOT of different unit types (i.e. combined arms).

And keep in mind the list split was suggested for balancing tournament lists, that's all.

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zombocom

Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:53 pm

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Onyx: Why 4+ Reinforced? it's 40k armour profile is identical to a hellhound, and much less than other titans. It's closer to a warhound, armour-wise.

Unfortunately, aircraft do not represent front line fighting machines well.

In the one test so far, the manta spent two turns "landed" (hovering, since we gave it the skimmer ability) in the front lines, dropping off suits and blasting away. That's pretty front-line, just with a Tau twist; the ability to redeploy quickly.

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zombocom

Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:00 pm

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Quote: (Hena @ 14 Nov. 2008, 18:56 )

It is supposed to be spaceship. So it should be rather sturdy.

Which is why it has so many DC. Even if it remains a support craft I'd like to see the armour reduced.

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zombocom

Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:05 pm

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Quote: (Onyx @ 14 Nov. 2008, 10:10 )

One other thing, Railgun submunitions are self guiding...
Why wouldn't GM's be self guiding aswell? This would obviously mean they could be fired without a Markerlight but would be more accurate with a Markerlit target (ie no need to change the present rules for GM's).

Both 40k lists, 3rd and 4th edition, and the FW taros epic list have GMs only firable when markerlit, because that's how the weapon they invented works.

Not to mention the fact that it makes the game so much more fun, and allows the Tau to have a lot of long ranged firepower with a balancing aspect.

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Chroma

Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:13 pm

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Quote: (zombocom @ 14 Nov. 2008, 19:00 )

Quote: (Hena @ 14 Nov. 2008, 18:56 )

It is supposed to be spaceship. So it should be rather sturdy.

Which is why it has so many DC. Even if it remains a support craft I'd like to see the armour reduced.

And it *does* have a force field...

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zombocom

Post subject: Aspect: Tau Units

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:32 pm

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Here's an interesting quote from the 3rd ed Tau codex...

The Manta Missile Destroyer is the nearest Tau equivilent of Human Titans or Ork Garants.

So far, nothing new, but if we read on...

It is a dropship, several times larger than a Thunderhawk Gunship, which is capable of operating as either a skimmer or a flyer on the battlefield.

So how about a compromise rule, something similar to the VTOL rules Lord I has used for Aquillas, whereby it is a bomber that can become a mobile skimmer when landed? That would seem to represent the background best.

Oh and for the ML debate, hopefully this should be a knockout blow. Quote from the 3rd ed Tau Codex:

The Vehicle carrying the seeker missiles has no control over them and cannot launch them itself. The mechanism is remote and only responds to Markerlight users.

I rest my case on that front.

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