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EA Tau - Rules Questions

 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:11 am 
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Dobbsy, with all due respect, context matters ... a lot! Especially with Skimmer, one can´t just add up numbers and saves and expect a meaningful result. Same thing with upgrades: People are going to pick certain obvious boosts and looking at anything else is distorting the results!

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:15 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 16 Oct. 2008, 22:02 )

I guess the LR always stand out in the open when they move too eh?

If they want to shoot something they need LoS, so yes are out in the open a lot more.

Why is it you think everyone HAS to take the stuff you throw into these comparisons or they're "bonkers"?


Largely experience. Expensive formations need organic AA to avoid being an easy target as they advance. Having leader is good.

Unless the LR are closer to terrain...

If you can't see, pop up and wait on overwatch. They move, you fire and drop down. If they haven't moved correctly they now can't see you.

What are the comparisons for my outlined encounter with none of the extraneous units you threw in?

Above, though I kept it to 2 formations each to try and limit the massive number of variables!

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:28 am 
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Quote: (Lion in the Stars @ 16 Oct. 2008, 18:08 )

One 30cm AP5+ weapon per HHead is festooned?  A LRuss has 2 Heavy Bolters and a lascannon.  A predator has 2 Heavy Bolters.  Even a Chimera has a HB.  Tau tanks are lighter in the short-range AP department than any imperial tank.

? The Hammerhead has a 30cm ignore cover AP5+ weapon. I would take that over 2 heavy bolters any day of the week. That means no cover save for the infantry and no modifier to hit. Even on sustain it beats firing at infantry with the bolters. This could be a function though of how much terrain you use. I'm use to 12 pieces on a 6x4 table and infantry standing next to transports when in the open. And of course the las cannon isn't AP :)

Now, what units have Coordinated Fire?  Crisis Shas'O/'El, Pathfinders, and Tetras.  If the player is willing to spend the upgrade slot for it, he could have a co-fire unit in each formation.  I note that most AMHC units don't include PF or Tetras.  A Crisis formation probably will have a Shas'El, and FW would probably have a PF attachment (I know that's how I'd set mine up).

To use your AMHC v. LRuss company example, you sacrificed the Tetras activation to break one LRuss company.  The counterattack was assumed to break one of the AMHCs, and would probably also break-or-destroy the Tetras (since they got really close to ML the target formation).


The counter attack can only hit one formation so thats Tetras or the Hammerheads. Then of course you come to what is the rest of the army doing. Still for less points I had the 2 formations and the tetras. Generally I use separate co-ord formations, preferably with markerlights. 2 reasons, the ml ones double to ml range of the target and light it and for all, co-ord formations mean if I fail to activate I don't lose a firing formation, just an incidental one.

So, by that analysis, I could spam activations in ANY of the basic army lists.  I'm not seeing the issue (again, I'm ignoring Orca and independent drones).

Spammed formations have to be at least 4 strong typically though siege arty is a notable exception. They rarely work well if they are assault formations (rough riders being probably the only exception). I want typically a good total attack for a double and shoot (range and to hit) and being scouts makes them great for picket duty. Also they work with your main units increasing their durability and effectiveness. 200 points is typically too much, unless its for really big infantry formations or similar.
There isn't a good spammable unit in the IG list. Scouts used to be abusable in the marine list but now no more drop pod barrage.

Tau have Piranha for GM spam, Tetra for ML's and long range ap, heavy drones for AP and ML and even pathfinders though they are a bit pricy and vulnerable. Excellent firepower though.

Airpower is trickier to spam, though certainly if you have a cheap enough points to firepower ratio, enough activations and the rest of the army can clear flak for you you are onto a winner.

So 5 thunderhawks are annoying but don't really have the firepower to do much except vs un guarded infantry. Actually I wonder how 3 warhounds for flak clearance and 5 thunderhawks would do? :) Sadly poorly I suspect vs armour!

Ultimately the best big activation lists have resilient core formations and a horde of smaller ones for delaying, harassing and bm'ing.

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:12 am 
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Ultimately the Tau get more hits on target than the Russ for the same points. The Russ are tougher so for the Tau to win they need to use their speed, skimmer, ML's and Co-ord fire to totally outclass the Russ.

Against other armour though the Tau are out ahead of the russ even without these abilities as more hits is more kills here.

For a straight firefight though don't compare russ trading fire with broadsides, its nasty :)

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:46 am 
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Thankyou TRC


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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:54 am 
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I just fail to see what useful information could be drawn from such a misleading comparison

It helps me establish what both sides are capable of on a "level" playing field. I can ignore all the variables and see it from the base of their capabilities. From my perspective, when there are no other factors involved I get a better idea of their standing vs each other. You may not see it that way but I do. Once I know the results I can start adding in the variables.

People are going to pick certain obvious boosts and looking at anything else is distorting the results!
I disagree. Army lists are personal choice. What if my opponent and I decide not to use airpower? Or we decide to have an all armour shoot out? What if we decide to play that on a flat desert terrain for a scenario? Why would I include the hydra other than formation number alone? Aren't the points better spent elsewhere in an all-armour fight? My point is, there's many variables so getting to the bottom of base abilities makes sense to me.

They generate more hits so are better against lighter armoured vehicles
Like I said, if the scenario (the situation, not the actual game scenario) does not warrant it, why would I look at HH fighting LVs? I don't want this in my equation of base abilities. It's a variable...

In the fight it comes down to who fires first essentially and here the above with a higher strategy rating is important
True, but who is to say other forces in your list aren't more important to activate first. What if the Tau formation needed to withdraw from a possible rough rider assault. The Tau player wouldn't shoot the Russes he would have to move away or risk destruction. The russes would then get to activate and move to shoot the HHs. My point is there are an infinte number of possibilities in gaming so getting to base line abilities is important to me.
From your second lot of stats that fight is fairly balanced and it comes down to rolling a dice to determine it? What a shock! We have to rely on luck to win a game.... Do you play all your games using statistical generators? No. Each time you roll a die it has a random chance - it is a different result every time. Even if you hit on 2s you could roll all 1s... You can argue as much statistical info you want but in the end it comes down to rolling dice. Statistics only give you an idea of what is possible. Having 1 extra point of SR means something yes, but it's not immensely overpowerful. That fight could have gone a number of ways and that's a base line abilities fight! It's why I didn't want all the extra stuff added in.  

HH
1st activation on a 2+
1.75 kills.
2nd activation on a 3+
1.75 kills.
Russ
1st activation on a 2+
2.67 kills.
2nd activation on a 4+
3.5 dead, 4.5 bm's, 1-3 tanks can return fire inc. vanquisher average 0.67 kills. HH down 3.33 tanks and 4.33 bms

Then if no side rallies

HH
1st activation on a 2+. Sustain.
2.33 kills.
2nd activation on a 4+. Down to one firing HH, 4 suppressed. Advance.
0.375 kills.
Russ
1st activation on a 3+. Taken 2.71 kills and 4.71 bms. Advance.
1.25 kills.
2nd activation on a 4+.
Taken 3.5 dead, 4.5 bm's. Sustain.
1.25 kills on the advanced HH, breaking them and sending 3-4 tanks fleeing

Sorry TRC I was a bit confused here. Why did the Russ's not do any firing on their second activations in both turns ?

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:38 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 17 Oct. 2008, 03:54 )

People are going to pick certain obvious boosts and looking at anything else is distorting the results!

I disagree. Army lists are personal choice. What if my opponent and I decide not to use airpower? Or we decide to have an all armour shoot out? What if we decide to play that on a flat desert terrain for a scenario? Why would I include the hydra other than formation number alone? Aren't the points better spent elsewhere in an all-armour fight? My point is, there's many variables so getting to the bottom of base abilities makes sense to me.

The EA army lists are intended to be balanced for use with the Grand Tournament scenario, not for all-armour, no airpower fights in a desert.

Jervis mentions in the rulebook that the points costs may need to be adjusted (or even abandoned) for scenarios like that.

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:18 am 
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The EA army lists are intended to be balanced for use with the Grand Tournament scenario, not for all-armour, no airpower fights in a desert.

Jervis mentions in the rulebook that the points costs may need to be adjusted (or even abandoned) for scenarios like that.


I realise this Zombo. I think you might be better served not taking me quite so literally and look outside the box. I wasn't asking for an exact points costing here. I was asking for a stats outcome to give me a better view on these two unit types.

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:28 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 17 Oct. 2008, 05:18 )

The EA army lists are intended to be balanced for use with the Grand Tournament scenario, not for all-armour, no airpower fights in a desert.

Jervis mentions in the rulebook that the points costs may need to be adjusted (or even abandoned) for scenarios like that.


I realise this Zombo. I think you might be better served not taking me quite so literally and look outside the box. I wasn't asking for an exact points costing here. I was asking for a stats outcome to give me a better view on these two unit types.

Fair enough, but make sure you keep in mind that they are figures of a distorted scenario, unlikely to ever take place ingame, and shouldn't be used to justify changes or lack thereof to the list.

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:59 am 
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shouldn't be used to justify changes or lack thereof to the list.

Just like a lot of what's said here in Tau land but seems to be used anyway....





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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:05 am 
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Guys, I am curious why the comparison was between Russ and HH. Why not also compare HH vs Predators and LR, or against Falcons and Fire Prisms, or even (dare I say it) various Ork vehicles??

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:53 am 
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I once had a chat with Jervis about doing statistical analyses to balance wargames.

Quite simply, he advised against doing too much of it, as 'That way madness lies'.

Be careful lads.  :))

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:19 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 17 Oct. 2008, 17:53 )

I once had a chat with Jervis about doing statistical analyses to balance wargames.

Quite simply, he advised against doing too much of it, as 'That way madness lies'.

Be careful lads.  :))

Name dropper!  :tongue:

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:05 pm 
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Quote: (Onyx @ 17 Oct. 2008, 11:19 )

Name dropper!  :tongue:

Only under the most dire of circumstances.  :))

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:31 pm 
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For what it is worth, I have seen plenty of Russ formations without Hydras.  Different players, different playing styles.

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