Coordinated Fire allows up to 2 additional formations to join in, like the Commander.

Seriously, adding a Hydra to an IG Tank Coy is the smart thing to do and everyone does it. All the time.

It´s such an obviously good idea that the Steel Legion list might as well read "IG Tank Coy 9xLRu tanks, !x Vanquisher, 1xHydra, 700 Pts"

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So it's 2x (9x LRuss, Vanq, Hydra) for 1400 points, versus 2x (8xHHead, Skyray, leader) (600ea) and (Tetra) (175) for 1375. (I don't like the Swordfish)

Assumptions: 1) Tetras can double to markerlight range of one Russ company (let's say LRuss1 advanced a bit),
2) the Russ companies are within LOS of each other, and
3) neither side has any BMs or dead.

Tetras double forward and Mark one Russ company, AMHCs advance and co-fire into marked Russ company.  That's 20 AT5+ from GMs (6.67 hits), and 16 AT3+ (10.33 hits, 17 hits total).  Bad news for the Tau, 4+RA bounces 75% of those, so there's only 4.25 kills and 6 BMs (4 dead + 1 under fire + 1 under fire). That is just short of breaking the company by my math, unless someone gets lucky, because of the Hydra.  So, by the numbers, 1200 points of typical HHeads are not capable of breaking a 700 point LRuss company on average dice.

Now the IG get to respond.  The attacked company would probably rally, since only one vehicle can shoot back, so they're NOT going to be activated yet.  The unhurt LRuss company (assuming that the HHeads had to advance into the open instead of popping up and the Hydra is out of range) will hit (4.5+.83=) 5.33 times.  HHeads save half of those, so that's ~2.67 kills, 3-4 BMs (depending on rounding).  Not quite enough to break a supported AHMC (9 models).

Head-to-head?  Ok, AMHC w/2x Swords is 400, AMHC+HHead is 500, AMHC plain is 375.  Total is 1275.  There's an issue here, since the Tau no longer have co-fire.  Let's assume that both can fire at the same time at the same target.  

Russ have 18x AT4+, 2x AT2+
9 + 1.67 = 10.67 hits
5.33 kills

Tau have 18x AT3+, 2x AT2+, and 20x AT6+ from the GMs fired blind.
12 + 1.67 + 3.33 = 17 hits ->63% more hits
8.5 failed saves, 4.25 kills after RA. -> 20% fewer kills.

I could do the math for 9xRuss+Vanq (650) v. 9xHHead+1xSword (650), but the probabilities are the same.

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I've never seen an LR tank company without a hydra. Any comparison needs to include the hydra, as it is always taken.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

At any range over 45cm, whether the Hydra is physically there or not only matters when it's time to count BMs for breaking the unit.

As you can see from my first outline of 2x 'typical AMHC' + Tetras for co-fire, the Hydra kept the targeted LRuss company from breaking (unless the Tetras would also put a BM on the LRuss?).

As far as a direct comparison goes, the HHead is NOT AS GOOD as a LRuss, even included dumbfired GMs.

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But: As Skimmers the HH´s won´t be around to get shot after popping down unless the Tau player messes up. No such luxury for IG.

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Unless the IG get to activate first and go on overwatch and then mess up all the theories.

My math/theoryhammer was assuming that the HHeads had to advance to fire at the LRuss.  Otherwise, LRuss get no return fire and the Tau do it again next turn!

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Let me say it clearly for those who may have missed my point.

NO ADD ONS!!

No!! I wanted a straight fight between the two tank types no vehicle add ons!. Simple. I don't give a rats fat clacker about the vehicle add ons. I wanted it unadulterated so I can gauge where these two vehicles stand versus each other in a straight up shoot out when it comes to firepower. No terrain argument. No pop up argument. No hydras. No Tetras.

N.o.t.h.i.n.g added on

Is it too much to ask? Seriously?  

it's not too much to ask, it's just not useful.

Who cares who wins in a straight up fight between the unupgraded formations on a board without terrain? That never happens.

They should be costed for all their abilities, including skimmer and potential upgrades.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Thats why I would take swordfish (more damage for an AT formation).

Assumptions: 1) Tetras can double to markerlight range of one Russ company (let's say LRuss1 advanced a bit),
2) the Russ companies are within LOS of each other, and

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Yes, they are better They generate more hits so are better against lighter armoured vehicles. They have the initiative against russ due to speed and skimmer. In the fight it comes down to who fires first essentially and here the above with a higher strategy rating is important.

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General Plumer, 191x

Who cares who wins in a straight up fight between the unupgraded formations on a board without terrain? That never happens

Tis in the post above points wise.

Though of course you are skewing things to the Leman Russ's favour as they are best fighting in deserts, Hammerheads are better for Europe (With markerlights!)

But if you face Rommels Hammerheads and assuming he goes first due to higher strategy rating and speed it comes out at
2 Companies of Russ (1300) vs 2 formations of HH (1050)

HH
1st activation on a 2+
1.75 kills.
2nd activation on a 3+
1.75 kills.
Russ
1st activation on a 2+
2.67 kills.
2nd activation on a 4+
3.5 dead, 4.5 bm's, 1-3 tanks can return fire inc. vanquisher average 0.67 kills. HH down 3.33 tanks and 4.33 bms.

Then if no side rallies

HH
1st activation on a 2+. Sustain.
2.33 kills.
2nd activation on a 4+. Down to one firing HH, 4 suppressed. Advance.
0.375 kills.
Russ
1st activation on a 3+. Taken 2.71 kills and 4.71 bms. Advance.
1.25 kills.
2nd activation on a 4+. Taken 3.5 dead, 4.5 bm's. Sustain.
1.25 kills on the advanced HH, breaking them and sending 3-4 tanks fleeing.

At the end both sides are pretty mauled with the Tau probably being down to one functioning formation and the Russ two damaged ones or 1 untouched and one gone depending on how they fire.

If both sides rally the commissars help.
Russ 3.5 dead, 1 bm's
HH down 3.33 tanks and 2 bms.

HH
1st activation on a 2+. Sustain.
2.33 kills.
2nd activation on a 4+. Down to 3 firing HH, 2 suppressed. Advance. (Actually better to sustain or advance away but hey.)
0.958 kills.
Russ
1st activation on a 3+. Taken 0.958 kills and 1.958 bms. 8 tanks return fire. Sustain on advanced HH.
5.41 kills. Wipe out HH formation 2.
2nd activation 4+. Taken 5.88 kills and 3.33bms for hopefully 1 tank left. Rally

Best case scenario Tau, 6.8 dead russ.
Best case scenario Russ, 8 dead Tau.

Not bad for starting 250 points down (easily enough another activation to help things).

And of course this is the worse possible fighting situation for the Hammerheads. Note the worse possible for the Russ is they can't see the enemy due to terrain and are just taking casualties (at which point the advance stops and they wait on overwatch).

With 3 smaller formations after two turns it would probably be 1 untouched tau, 1 mauled tau and 1 broken Tau vs 1 damged Russ and 1 broken russ. First turn the Russ would break the unactivated HH after taking damage. 2nd turn they would lose the broken formation or have both damaged to damage in return a HH formation. The points here though would be 1325 Tau vs 1300 guard. The more difficult activations for the Guard here would start to tell and the activation advantage would keep the Tau activating back better, even more so if the Russ tried to take on the big Tau formation, not the smaller ones first.

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General Plumer, 191x

A most helpful attitude there Zombo... Nice work. So you don't care that perhaps other people might like the comparison to gauge where the two vehicles stand in direct comparison? You don't care that I might like to see how it would pan out?

I'm biting my tongue here....

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Epic: Hive Development Thread