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EA Tau - Rules Questions

 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:48 pm 
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Oh actually a rules question here. (Remarkable for this thread.)

Are the burst cannon and interceptor missiles supposed to be fixed forward *Edit* on the Moray? Burst cannon normally aren't and the gm's seem to be able to fire in any direction.




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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:08 am 
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TRC:  It's the way the Tau army works.  Eldar use formations to cover weaknesses, Tau add their strengths together.  And you beat the Tau army the same way you beat an Eldar army in 40k.  FW are utterly ineffective beyond 30cm, so that's the range you fight them at.  Crisis suits are ineffective beyond 45cm.  Vehicles are largely ineffective up close.  If the opponent allows the Tau to dictate the terms of the engagement, he's going to lose.  

How do you balance the Tau?  Same way the Eldar army got costed and balanced.

Would playing with the drone formation fix the spam issue, or is the culprit the Orca?

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:10 am 
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On the Orca?  BCs should be 360, along with the Missile Pods (they're in a drop-down turret).  The interceptor missiles I'm not sure about, since they're not on the 40k version, IIRC.

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:25 am 
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Quote: (Lion in the Stars @ 16 Oct. 2008, 00:10 )

On the Orca?  BCs should be 360, along with the Missile Pods (they're in a drop-down turret).  The interceptor missiles I'm not sure about, since they're not on the 40k version, IIRC.

On the Moray.

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:33 am 
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Quote: (Lion in the Stars @ 16 Oct. 2008, 00:08 )

TRC:  It's the way the Tau army works.  Eldar use formations to cover weaknesses, Tau add their strengths together.  And you beat the Tau army the same way you beat an Eldar army in 40k.  FW are utterly ineffective beyond 30cm, so that's the range you fight them at.  Crisis suits are ineffective beyond 45cm.  Vehicles are largely ineffective up close.  If the opponent allows the Tau to dictate the terms of the engagement, he's going to lose.  

How do you balance the Tau?  Same way the Eldar army got costed and balanced.

And the Eldar weakness is useless armour and small fragile formation. Tau formations are bigger, better armoured, longer ranged, with drones to soak hits and lots of leader if you want it. Infantry being useless above 30cm is fine. Mechanised troops operate at 30cm ranges anyway. Common AP weapons in Epic are short ranged, rarely more than 45cm. Tau vehicles are festooned with short ranged back up weapons.

Would playing with the drone formation fix the spam issue, or is the culprit the Orca?


The Orca is the safest spam option as its a transport aircraft. But otherwise the Tau list has a profusion of cheap fast formations and absolutely uniquely a special rule (co-ord fire) that lets them behave like big formations when they shoot (that is an awful bit of synergy in the army!).

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:25 am 
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So do you mean points per hit point better? Or just 'guard have better long range firepower if the player cripples himself getting 2 companies of Leman Russ (about 1400 points - almost the same cost gets you 3 swordfish/HH/Skyray formations with considerably greater firepower').
And of course 3+ to hit means you are as good popping up as the russ are at sustaining. Such a force incidentally would be chewed up by the sort of Tau armies you can currently make.

Ignoring the extra vehicles and the skimmer argument - because skimmers can easily be avoided with the new skimmer rules. I mean straight fight 1300 points for 20 LRs (2 Coys inc 2 vanquishers that hit on 2+, with commissar fearless) vs 1300 for 20 HHs(3 formations inc 2 swordfish that hit on 2+ ... + an extra couple to make points up). LR fire the same range and get 2 saves for each hit they sustain. Tau tanks get a slightly better to hit value, a second 75cm attack and one save each.

What is the maths on that? No sarcasm, just a question. Statistically, how many hits does each side make and what saves are made?





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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:55 am 
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An actual question here CS -

Why is Co-ord fire allowed 3 formations to fire not 2 like the Commander gets 2 for combined assault?

I think it could be toned down somewhat.


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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:31 am 
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Yep, both allow 3 formations to activate. The main differences are the Tau can't be intermingled setting up the action and each formation gets to act independently - so different orders, more bm's and can double after broken formations.

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:50 pm 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 16 Oct. 2008, 01:25 )

Ignoring the extra vehicles and the skimmer argument - because skimmers can easily be avoided with the new skimmer rules. I mean straight fight 1300 points for 20 LRs (2 Coys inc 2 vanquishers that hit on 2+, with commissar fearless) vs 1300 for 20 HHs(3 formations inc 2 swordfish that hit on 2+ ... + an extra couple to make points up). LR fire the same range and get 2 saves for each hit they sustain. Tau tanks get a slightly better to hit value, a second 75cm attack and one save each.

What is the maths on that? No sarcasm, just a question. Statistically, how many hits does each side make and what saves are made?

Thats not that good a comparison as Russ always have hydra and if you aren't bonkers hammerheads have skyray and swordfish.

So two activations of Russ are 1400. Each formation of HH are 500 (HH, Skyray, Swords, Network drones). 600 if you want a big formation of 9 but have to choose between leader and swordfish.

So assuming no cover to worry about (and I'll be amazed if this is the case). In isolation the HH can simply pop up on overwatch and shoot the russ, sinking back down to avoid return fire unless the russ move. There is no dissadvantage doing this as you have to advance to pop up anyway.

Other factors to consider are throwing in some tetra or a nearby commander for a co-ord fire and upping the Tau firepower to activations compared to the retains and two lots of goes needed otherwise.

But anyway.

Raw firepower for Russ 700 points
On advance at Long range (75cm)
5 1/3 hits - 2 2/3 killed hammerheads
Short range (under 45cm, i.e. two moves)
9 1/3 - 4 2/3 killed hammerheads
On double at Long range
3 2/3 hits - 1 5/6 kills
Short range
5 2/3 hits - 2 5/6 kills
On sustain at Long range
6 5/6 hits - 3 5/12 kills
Short range
12 5/6 hits - 6 5/12 kills

Hammerhead also moving to simulate hiding from russ and pop ups.
Long range on Advance 500 points
Lit 6 2/3 hits - 1 2/3 killed russ (assume hydra is at the back)
Unlit 5 2/3 hits - 1 5/12 kills
Short Range (little advantage other than a couple of missile launchers and the skyrays markerlights, best instead moving away)
7 2/3 hits - 1 11/12 kills
Long range on Double
Lit 4 2/3 hits - 1 1/6 killed russ
Unlit 4 hits - 1 kill
Short Range
5 1/3 hits - 1 1/3 kills
Long range on Sustain (more likely than Russ as they have to move to get line of sight onto you)
Lit 9 hits - 2 1/4 kills
Unlit 7 2/3 hits - 1 11/12 kills
Short Range
10 1/3 hits - 2 7/12 kills

600 point hammerhead formation (HH, +HH, Swordfish and skyray)
Long range on Advance
Lit 9 hits - 2 1/4 killed russ
Unlit 7 1/3 hits -  1 11/12 kills
Short Range
10 hits - 2 1/2 kills (still of course not hitting the Hydra :) )
Long range on Double
Lit 6 hits - 1 1/2 killed russ
Unlit 5 1/6 hits - 1 7/12 kills
Short Range
6 2/3 hits - 1 2/3 kills
Long range on Sustain
Lit 10 hits - 2 1/2 kills
Unlit 8 1/3 hits - 2 1/12 kills
Short Range
11 1/3 hits - 3 5/12 kills (finally definatly hit the hydra :) )

Of course all this assumes Leman Russ can target popping up skimmers at 75cm (insert double), which in my experience isn't true. And no one is in cover in which case the hammerheads have a bigger boost (at -2 they get (500) 3 hits at 75 to the russ's (700) 2) due to higher to hit numbers. Also if the russ manoever to hit the HH's they get to sustain back.

And of course in terms of raw firepower the HH's are out in front so all the other armies with less armoured vehicles worry about HH's more.

At their best (short range on sustain) the Russ pump out 1 AT hit per 54.55 points. At long range on advance at long range its 1 AT hit per 131.25 points. The best Hammerhead profile is 48.39 points per hit and at long range on advance its far better at 66.67 - more than twice as good.

Of course all this ignores the AP aspect of both forces, attrition on both sides before and after their activations, the fearless surviving tank, skimmer and terrain, actual pop up tactics and the need to take objectives. And CC troops are nay bother as a Glaswegian would say :)

In a duel the Hammerheads would get first strike due to cover. Say two 600 point formations and a formation of Tetra. In one activation everything gets to fire placing 4 1/2 kills and 7 1/2 bm. Whether you round up or down on the kills its still broken. The unbroken company can advance and fire back getting its 2 2/3 kills and 3 2/3bms most likely breaking the HH (say its 3 kills). Then there are too many variables to continue :)
With 3 500 point formations you are doing more damage but if the first LR company hit gets a bit lucky and doesn't break after two formations attack it and marshalls its unlikely it will break in the first turn. However even if you lose a formation to return fire you have more firepower ready next turn.

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:16 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 15 Oct. 2008, 16:48 )

Are the burst cannon and interceptor missiles supposed to be fixed forward *Edit* on the Moray? Burst cannon normally aren't and the gm's seem to be able to fire in any direction.

Interceptor Missiles are FF on everything that carries them (Hunter Missiles are a different weapon).  Other Guided Missiles are 360, but Interceptor Missiles are only in FF mounts.

I can make arguments both directions about the burst cannon, although I prefer the BCs on turrets/flex mounts for a 360 arc.

CS, a ruling please?

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:08 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 15 Oct. 2008, 17:33 )

And the Eldar weakness is useless armour and small fragile formation. Tau formations are bigger, better armoured, longer ranged, with drones to soak hits and lots of leader if you want it. Infantry being useless above 30cm is fine. Mechanised troops operate at 30cm ranges anyway. Common AP weapons in Epic are short ranged, rarely more than 45cm. Tau vehicles are festooned with short ranged back up weapons.

Ya know, I've been looking, and there's no leader other than the Ethereal for FW... I know there's no precedent for it (not like an IG platoon LT or company commander), but it seems odd.  The Leaders for the Tau are in the Crisis suits and the Tanks.

One 30cm AP5+ weapon per HHead is festooned?  A LRuss has 2 Heavy Bolters and a lascannon.  A predator has 2 Heavy Bolters.  Even a Chimera has a HB.  Tau tanks are lighter in the short-range AP department than any imperial tank.  

Would playing with the drone formation fix the spam issue, or is the culprit the Orca?

The Orca is the safest spam option as its a transport aircraft. But otherwise the Tau list has a profusion of cheap fast formations and absolutely uniquely a special rule (co-ord fire) that lets them behave like big formations when they shoot (that is an awful bit of synergy in the army!).

Now, what units have Coordinated Fire?  Crisis Shas'O/'El, Pathfinders, and Tetras.  If the player is willing to spend the upgrade slot for it, he could have a co-fire unit in each formation.  I note that most AMHC units don't include PF or Tetras.  A Crisis formation probably will have a Shas'El, and FW would probably have a PF attachment (I know that's how I'd set mine up).

To use your AMHC v. LRuss company example, you sacrificed the Tetras activation to break one LRuss company.  The counterattack was assumed to break one of the AMHCs, and would probably also break-or-destroy the Tetras (since they got really close to ML the target formation).

Ignoring the gun drones (since we all know there are issues with them) and the Orca (which has other limits, and still has issues as well), the cheapest Tau formation is Piranhas, Human Aux, or Vespid (and Tiger Sharks) @ 150 points.  Marines have Scouts @ 150, Assault @ 175.  IG Support formations, Sentinels @ 100, Rough Riders and Flak battery @ 150.  Orks:  Gunzmob @ 125, Stormboys and Bltiz Brigade @ 150.  Gah, Tau have 6 units between 150 and 200 points base.  Marines have 6 (including THawk and Strike Cruiser).  IG have 6 Support formations (not counting Sentinels, and Company Upgrades aren't separate formations, right?).  The Stompamob is the only non-WE unit in the Ork list over 200 points base.

So, by that analysis, I could spam activations in ANY of the basic army lists.  I'm not seeing the issue (again, I'm ignoring Orca and independent drones).

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:03 pm 
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Hmm, I think TRC is refering to the 10x FW and 10x Orca list. This could obviously be watered down slightly to 8x of each and adding Ethereal commanders to make the FW cadres Fearless, or possibly a better option would be 4x FW and 4x Crisis, each with their own Orca for 2650 allowing a few more upgrades or other formations.

Change one or two formations for Barracudas and AX-10 (to take out troublesome AA), add some drones for screening etc and this would seem to have the makings of a highly effective airborne 'Pop corn' army.

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:04 pm 
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Fixing popcorn lists is usually a matter of changing the army list structure rather than points costs.

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:02 pm 
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Thats not that good a comparison as Russ always have hydra and if you aren't bonkers hammerheads have skyray and swordfish

Geez! TRC you just can't accept a straight fight comparison. You always have to add things. My comparison was equal points. same number of vehicles. on an equal footing. Why is it you think everyone HAS to take the stuff you throw into these comparisons or they're "bonkers"? I also noticed you didn't take into account that popups get blocked by terrain now too.. I guess the LR always stand out in the open when they move too eh?

In a duel the Hammerheads would get first strike due to cover.
Unless the LR are closer to terrain...

Thanks for the stats TRC.

What are the comparisons for my outlined encounter with none of the extraneous units you threw in?

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