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EA Tau - Rules Questions

 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:20 am 
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The FW list is the nearest to official the Tau list will ever get.

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:29 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ 15 Oct. 2008, 06:24 )

Quote: (zombocom @ 15 Oct. 2008, 08:20 )

The FW list is the nearest to official the Tau list will ever get.

That's no where as near official as the SG one *shrug*.

I'd say being in print makes it a lot more official.

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:33 am 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 15 Oct. 2008, 10:22 )

Quote: (Onyx @ 15 Oct. 2008, 02:34 )

This might lead to a lot of Hero/Moray combos but with any army accept Guard (and Feral orks-Hena  :;): ), there is at least a 50% chance of being able to delay the Hero until the 2nd turn (opponent deploys their orbital support before the Tau on turn 1).

I don't think its fair to have a powerful combo that demands such a counter measure. For Orks say the ship is useless but you would have to include it if you had any worthwhile targets.

No, I wouldn't have to include the ship at all. I'd let the Moray land do it's bit, then I'd assault it to death with Scorchas (I don't play Orks without having at least 2 or more Kults of Speed of them). Attack it with Fighta Bommas etc. Hardly unbeatable.
No special customisation needed at all.

The Moray having to be so close would be it's achilles heal. Hopefully it it kills something valuable before it dies/gets broken.

Oh, and there's no way I'd be in favour of reducing the range on the big guns AND using always popped up. Reducing the range on the guns forces the Tau to have to maneuver to fire anyway (that seems to be the whole motivation for APU).




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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:17 pm 
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zombo, we are most likely going to play some games on saturday. Why don't u post a list of the rules u want to play test and I can make a list accordingly. it will give me a chance to make sure I understand the rule properly and its implications on the function of the list. I'm convinced some of the failures of our earlier playtesting was that I simply did not understand the full implications of the rule change our one experimentation with Hit and Run is a case in point. I'm sure we will be discussing the proposed changes at length in our usual style.


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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:24 pm 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 15 Oct. 2008, 03:54 )

Gotcha. Well Morays have come about as a TK option....

Which is surprising considering there were already other TK sources. I think only Orks have the same variety off the top of my head (meks, gargant, great gargant). Oh no Guard have 3 as well (Deathstrikes, SHT's and Warlord).

What is the difference between them incidentally beyond one being a ground unit and one an air unit?

Is this a rhetorical question TRC? If it's not, I would say fundamentally different. Can you engage an A-X-1-0 in assault? No. Can Volcano cannons shoot at the plane? No. Can AA weapons target the Moray? No. Can Interceptors interrupt the Moray's attacks? I think you see the pattern....

No its a genuine question. I tend to group units in shooty lists by target type then other stuff (like how you get to the target etc). So for me the A-10/Moray comparison is simply which one is better at killing WE for their points. The moray takes more fire but the a-10 can miss turns etc so then I take that basic killyness and modify it by which one will deliver more. Either one will win or the other and then I factor in the army list implications (Hero for Moray, flak suppression for A-10). But fundamentally I am comparing them for the same target type. So they are the same bar the obvious ground/air difference for me.

If the Moray only had Ions that would be a little different as now its an assault cannon rather than a las cannon.

Being forced to take an aircraft if you don't want to - be it due to it's cost or it's vulnerability or it's kill-ratio, whatever - is a bit counter-intuitive IMO.

But I thought the Tau were air reliant for heavy support just like a modern army?


As to range/firepower. High firepower on a fragile unit is always problematic to point. The further the two diverge the worse it gets. Its compounded here by orbital drop capacity. So you have to cost it for its optimum use. That in turn forces metagame changes as everyone will need a spaceship to try and fend these beasts off.

I always prefer a balance of firepower to survivability as its a lot easier to point and defend against.

Quote: (Hena @ 15 Oct. 2008, 05:56 )

I don't think Tau will ever come official no matter what.

Personally I think the main audience should be Matt Otter and UK tournies as its for me the next best thing to it being official. I don't know if other countries have the same sort of organisation as Matts done here.

Quote: (Onyx @ 15 Oct. 2008, 08:33 )

No, I wouldn't have to include the ship at all. I'd let the Moray land do it's bit, then I'd assault it to death with Scorchas (I don't play Orks without having at least 2 or more Kults of Speed of them). Attack it with Fighta Bommas etc. Hardly unbeatable.
No special customisation needed at all.

I'd mill you out of activations then land. Thats the whole point :) You get one turns firing with no opposition then if you win initiative another.

With your range drop as opposed to weapons drop I would probably switch to ions so between them they could severely damage any likely threats. The Hero's TK shots would help against the big WE's here.

I would demonstrate it but I doubt I'll get more than one Tau game this week and that I though was to test what was agreed before.

If people come up with what it should be before then I would happily test that config instead.




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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:28 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 15 Oct. 2008, 20:30 )

Quote: (Onyx @ 15 Oct. 2008, 08:33 )

No, I wouldn't have to include the ship at all. I'd let the Moray land do it's bit, then I'd assault it to death with Scorchas (I don't play Orks without having at least 2 or more Kults of Speed of them). Attack it with Fighta Bommas etc. Hardly unbeatable.
No special customisation needed at all.

I'd mill you out of activations then land. Thats the whole point :) You get one turns firing with no opposition then if you win initiative another.

Very obvious tactics there...

Actually, thats not likely against Orks (I've been known to have over 13 activations with them for example). Orks are very good at this (but you would know that already).
I've obviously seen your batreps and note the high Tau activations in some of them. Hopefully this is something that will be addressed in the new Tau army list (Drone and Orca spamming are problems for example).
Thats actually the whole point - there are ways to deal with Morays.

Anyway, lets leave Ork tactics aside for now.

Are there any other races that force you to take air power to deal with Titans? I can't think of any. The Moray definately has a place in the list.

Obviously, if the Moray Railgun comes down in range, so must the Ion Cannons aswell. Maybe they wouldn't be so appealing after that?

It is sad though that so much of your gaming is playtesting.
When do you get to play for fun?

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:33 pm 
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I play for fun once a week on average and for the last few weeks that has meant Space Hulk :) Though last night it was a practice for the tourny on Saturday (which didn't go as well as I expected, having designed one of the most fragile IG armies ever).

Though of course I do like playtesting as I get to be a powergamer without censure :)

Quote: (Onyx @ 15 Oct. 2008, 16:28 )

I've obviously seen your batreps and note the high Tau activations in some of them. Hopefully this is something that will be addressed in the new Tau army list (Drone and Orca spamming are problems for example).

But will they? Orcas for instance have encountered flak from the word go but still don't have much in the way of changes.




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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:43 pm 
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Wow.  Hell did in fact freeze over (it snowed here last Friday, earliest snowfall in recorded local history)!  Y'all agree with me on how the Tau should work!

Ok.  More specifically:  Tau have better long-range fire than anyone.  More units capable of 75cm+, more accurate, harder hitting.  Ignoring the Apocalypse datasheets for the moment, a Railgun hits nearly as hard as a Shadowsword's main gun (Rails are more likely to kill a non-WE, in fact).  Add GMs for extreme-range fire (over 75cm, unlimited range in 40k; Hunter-killer missiles are 120cm in the IG list, unlimited range in 40k), although that's rather limited, since you need to have markerlights to fire a GM.  Units:  HHead, Skyray, Orca Bomber (Scorpfish), Manta.  Moray and AX10 should also be here, since they carry the same guns as a Manta (the big rails).  AX10 should NOT have the long range for balance purposes, and ideally engages at about 30cm for self-marking (fluff/PSB justification: aircraft travel so fast that even though the gun has that range, the aircraft will be much closer by the time the shot hits).  I like the Moray better as a Shadowsword analog, as no aircraft can take the torque from firing two separate heavy rails, not even the Manta (FW/40k), so Moray would be lower weaponsload, longer range.  The other Moray option is a Warhound/Reaver, and reduce the range.  Not sold on that idea.

At middle ranges, Tau are a little light.  Crisis suits, Missile Pod turrets and Sniper Drones are the only units capable of reaching to 45cm (and that was stretched compared to 40k, as all those weapons are only 36" range).  They're covered by the long reach of the Rails, though.

At shorter ranges, the Tau get really evil.  Lots of 30cm weapons here.

Crisis suits (using the E:A weapons load of Mpod, plasma rifle, and Fusion Blaster) get more dangerous the closer you get to them.  Harassing fire @ 45cm, significant fire @ 30, and a meltagun (err, Fusion Blaster) for Macro-weapon 15cm and FF.  Crisis suits are supposed to be the Jack-of-All-Trades, filling in for whatever can't get there, and killing hard targets.

Stealth suits are useless outside 15cm, except for the Markerlight.  Also, Stealth teams are outside the usual chain of command, and are given a lot of leeway for their operations.  Stealths should also have a Fusion Blaster for better assault capability.  In 40k, a unit of stealth suits is comparable to an equal number of Assault Marines in close combat, and exceeds an equal number of Devastator Marines in firefights.  Of any Tau unit, Stealths should be the Engage specialists.

FW should be running close to the enemy, think German (armored) Panzergrenadiers in WW2.  Anytime you see FW closing to within 30cm, expect to see lots and lots of dead opponents coming off the table.  Only Terminators can really win a firefight with FW, and they'll still lose one or two (out of 5 in 40k).  

Pathfinders are an oddity.  They really exist only to markerlight stuff @ 30cm, because if they get close enough to shoot someone, they're screwed.

Kroot are supposed to be a picket line unit, infiltrating close to the enemy and preventing him from engaging the Tau in CC.  Kroot are pretty good in CC, not so good at range (even FF-range).

Vespid are another speedbump unit.  They move fast, and can ignore terrain.  They also carry a Marine (or equivalent) removal device, which is utterly deadly at 12" (FF-range).  They're lightly armored, however, and not strong enough to be really good in CC (by fluff, they should be better in CC than they are in 40k).  They're really good for hitting the enemy from an unexpected direction, like through an 'impassable' forest.

Human Aux are a different kind of speedbump.  They are basically IG without the heavy weapons.  Instead of the Autocannon/ML/HB/whatever, they can get Pulse Rifles.  This only costs them a little firepower at range compared to an HB, and makes them more mobile.  On Taros, Human Aux were used to protect the mines from the Imperial forces, slowing them down until the FW could arrive, and other fluff reinforces this basic use.  Humans hold whatever area they're familiar with, delaying the enemy until the FW can arrive and deal with the issue.

What this means to me for E:A is that Humans and kroot should be your go-to people for garrisoning (optionally, Pathfinders, since both forces are really light in AT).  Vespid would be the reaction force for dealing with infantry breakthroughs.  FW are mechanized, aggressive units, killing infantry before they can break through a hypothetical line.  Crisis suits back up the FW by killing Tanks, Tanks cover the long range.  With Mech Pathfinders and/or Tetras to provide a ML umbrella, there's all sorts of GM fire available, whether that's AP, AT, or MW, as needed.

===========

E&C can confirm this, but the Tau on Taros basically fought a guerilla conflict to slow down the Imperials, forcing them to use more resources than they had available (fuel and water).  Allow the Imps to advance, harassing the lead elements to slow them down, then hit the logistics tail and slow them down more.  I don't have the book in front of me, but there's really only one Tau offensive in the book, the attack on the Starport where Mantas actually showed up and pounded positions.  Otherwise, it was all just the Tau trading real estate for damage to the enemy, a defense in depth.  Taros may not be the best source for offensive Tau operations.

===========

About high activation count:  It's my understanding that the issue is a large number of 'throw-away' activations, as opposed to just a large number of activations in total (resulting from small formations that are easy to break individually, which allows for a lot of flexibility in Coordinated Fire activations).

What are the largest offenders in this area, aside from the independent drones and Orcas?  
Also, Orcas now have a limit of 1 per Cadre, so does that continue to leave them on the 'activation spammer' list?

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:57 pm 
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I don't necessarily agree with all the above, largely for the effect it would have in Epic (though if you know of a way to balance an army thats great at long and short range I'd love to know :) ).

But just on Orca you would always max out. A 100 point unit that can't be hurt by most of the enemy with a long range harrassing AT attack (and 45cm outranges most AA bar marines (rare), Tau (indeed) and Eldar (annoying) ) is nigh compulsory. You can delay with them whilst still bm'ing and maybe killing the enemy.

Currently if you just wanted to swamp the table with models and not getting the Drones you could have 9 FW and 9 Orca with whatever bts and supporting formations with the other 300. Sure you aren't that good and I'm not suggesting it (though of course with drones its great :) ) but you can just flood the table with stuff and generate a very un tauish game of attrition. Still a more sensible use of spamming it with better other options is far more effective than it should be.

Oh and they can land if you get desperate.

Any 'slots' you have from core formations that you don't get are a big waste. You may as well increase the cost of FW to 300 points to include the Orca as well in your army builds :)

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:57 pm 
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Nice summary LiTS :D  

The only question that this raises in my mind is the Long-range stuff and descriptions which seem a little at odds with your initial ascertion that Tau medium-range firepower should be better. Here I think most would expect the IG to have better long-range firepower (which is what the main argument has been over after all :smile: )

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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:13 pm 
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Here I think most would expect the IG to have better long-range firepower

If you take into account the numbers of battlecannons they have, then they do... The main weapons for the Tau are what's better. e.g Tau HHs cannot hope to sustain an encounter with a LR company. They hit hard but wither from enemy fire. LR's RA keeps it in good stead regardless of the Tau 3+ to hit value.

But just on Orca you would always max out
Thereby reducing the numbers of more effective formations on the table...
and maybe killing the enemy
My point exactly. (Emphasis inserted for effect)

Sure you aren't that good and I'm not suggesting it
So then your argument is very much nullified TRC. You can pop corn with every list out there so this is no justification.





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 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:28 pm 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 15 Oct. 2008, 22:13 )

Here I think most would expect the IG to have better long-range firepower

If you take into account the numbers of battlecannons they have, then they do... The main weapons for the Tau are what's better. e.g Tau HHs cannot hope to sustain an encounter with a LR company. They hit hard but wither from enemy fire. LR's RA keeps it in good stead regardless of the Tau 3+ to hit value.

So do you mean points per hit point better? Or just 'guard have better long range firepower if the player cripples himself getting 2 companies of Leman Russ (about 1400 points - almost the same cost gets you 3 swordfish/HH/Skyray formations with considerably greater firepower').
And of course 3+ to hit means you are as good popping up as the russ are at sustaining. Such a force incidentally would be chewed up by the sort of Tau armies you can currently make.

I'll happily try out Hammerheads verses other armour again, I admit its been over a year (2?) since I last had hammerhead armies flying around (and of course the halcyon days of Ion AA formations are past :) ). Or you can just run the numbers.

Sure you aren't that good and I'm not suggesting it
So then your argument is very much nullified TRC. You can pop corn with every list out there so this is no justification.

I just made a point about how many you could have. A good pop corn list has a variety of units. So 9 FW and 9 Orca have obvious flaws - but thats just because there are so many and few other options.

However get a range of stuff and max out on Orca is a very good strategy. I've stopped doing it as the guy I've been playing Tau against refuses to play against them.

As for more effective formations on table. For a 100 points can you get a better weapon load for a formation? Thats an AP4+ weapon an AP4+/AT4+ and AT6+GM. So properly supported with flak suppression gear you are laughing. More if they are marked. Even without flak suppression you have the two 45cm weapons. And you are hitting anywhere on the board.

And if you have to deep strike a d strike or similar formation with 2dc and 4+ saves you are as tough as a marauder flight with no degradation in firepower as you take damage, making it a great throw away formation.

and maybe killing the enemy
My point exactly. (Emphasis inserted for effect)

For a 100 points I cheerfully would have the thing without the missile launchers. The stalling and long range bm laying ability is good enough.

Hell one day I will maybe use them to transport stuff as well :)

Quote: (Dobbsy @ 15 Oct. 2008, 22:13 )

Sure you aren't that good and I'm not suggesting it

So then your argument is very much nullified TRC. You can pop corn with every list out there so this is no justification.
You can - but its in lists where it works that's its unstoppable :)




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