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EA Tau - Rules Questions
zombocom
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:02 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 14 Oct. 2008, 18:58 )

Then to show an example you pick a list which states that test target was GM units and support craft :rock:.

Even so, the fact that such a list is buildable should be a concern, no?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:11 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 14 Oct. 2008, 18:58 )

Then to show an example you pick a list which states that test target was GM units and support craft :rock:.

I just picked the latest test game actually.

Most test games 'only' have a quater/third of their army list from those units.

Also, as Zombocom says, let's drop this topic for now.

Quote: (Hena @ 14 Oct. 2008, 18:56 )

Since none of the Epic lists actually care about requiring the most common units, this would be odd to say the least. Tactical marines aren't in every epic list as much they should in background.

Tyranids (Broods and Synapses).
Siegemasters.
L&TD.
Necrons.
Even AMTL. :)

All of the above have very tight core force requirements, in order to make them reflect the background.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:33 pm 
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Those are personal attacks and unfair assumptions

And, again, I'm telling you they weren't a personal attack they were fact and I was quoting - albeit possibly paraphrasing.

Direct your attacks at my ideas, not at me
And, again, like I said in my post, I wasn't on the attack. If you can't see that I can't help that. I'll say no more on this as the points I've been trying to make were obviously not taken in the manner I intended them to be.

You've just removed the linchpins of most/many lists
So you've seen every Tau list ever created then E&C? This sort of quote is one of the reasons why I struggle with your views on the Tau design. You can't possibly know if they are the "lynchpins of most lists".
What if they are? I bet BL uses Deathwheels quite frequently also....

Why play Combined Arms Tau if you can turn on 'easy mode' and use 'point-and-click' units to play the battle
I think these two factors aren't necessarily polar. Your buzz-word "point&click" units work beautifully in combined arms. Why do they break combined arms?

Fire Warriors will remain absent from most 'all in one' Tau army list builds
Again, you can't possibly know this E&C. It's pure conjecture.

because it matches the background of how the Tau fight wars much better than the NetEA list
I have to ask, but is it possible that perhaps your interpretation of the fluff in regards to Epic design may be out of kilter? Marine armies fight differently in EA than they seem to in the fluff. Heck if you read the fluff marines are nigh bulletproof. I think this is the number one problem with 40K marines. People read the fluff and are unhappy when marines in 40K get killed so easily because they think they are supposed to be so tough.

My point is that their (prominent) presence in the only NetEA list distorts the style of the Tau army
Perhaps distorts your view of the Tau style?

simply put they distort the behaviour of the entire army list
Again, this is entirely your view and a lot of us don't feel that way. I think they fit in nicely. So we have an impasse.

Made up units are okay if there is a clear need for them .
For example the TK Moray overlaps with the AX-1-0
The moray certainly is. It fills a niche. And they are 2 different things and operate in totally different ways. One is a ground unit the other is airpower.

I need someone to justify the inclusion of the various made up units in their current form in the core NetEA Tau list to me.
Why is there a Deathwheel? Not being sarcastic, simple question.

Now if they had their stats altered so that they reinforced the Tau theme instead of distorted it
Isn't that what we've been trying to do recently? I even adjusted my last game Moray stats to the ones you preferred.

Those units reinforce the theme of their respective army lists. I contend that most of the made up units in the NetEA Tau list distort the theme
How so? And I disagree. Again, impasse.

i think the issue of canon/non-canon is one we can sidestep for now
Can we? Please?

On a different note, Fire Warriors are supposed to be the mainstay of the list, should the list structure be changed to reflect this and make them mandatory?
They don't need to be mandatory, just remove the AMHC from the core. If you want to build your army you need to take them to get the support units to fill that army.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:34 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 14 Oct. 2008, 19:18 )

Great. Of those only two are actually official lists. So that's what 2 of 9. I don't see much support for that requirement in there, sorry.

Then the NetEA Tau fit right in as they'll not become official either.  :whistle:


Making zingers makes me feel dirty.  :sad:

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zombocom
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:23 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 14 Oct. 2008, 22:33 )


And, again, I'm telling you they weren't a personal attack they were fact and I was quoting - albeit possibly paraphrasing.


Let's drop the issue, and both agree to be a little more thoughtful before we post in future.

Quote: (Dobbsy @ 14 Oct. 2008, 22:33 )


I have to ask, but is it possible that perhaps your interpretation of the fluff in regards to Epic design may be out of kilter?


E&C has read and reread the Taros campaign more than anyone I know of, and so has a clear idea of Tau warfare on a large scale.

Quote: (Dobbsy @ 14 Oct. 2008, 22:33 )


Perhaps distorts your view of the Tau style?


It distorts several people's views, and as such is worthy of discussion.

Quote: (Dobbsy @ 14 Oct. 2008, 22:33 )


The moray certainly is. It fills a niche. And they are 2 different things and operate in totally different ways. One is a ground unit the other is airpower.


The moray in its current incarnation is more like an air unit than a ground one, and overlaps greatly with the AX10.


Quote: (Dobbsy @ 14 Oct. 2008, 22:33 )

Now if they had their stats altered so that they reinforced the Tau theme instead of distorted it

Isn't that what we've been trying to do recently? I even adjusted my last game Moray stats to the ones you preferred.


Here we all agree. If the non-canon units can be satisfactorally altered then I would have no issue with their continued inclusion. I think their current perceived overpowered nature leads to them sticking out like a sore thumb in the list rather than smoothly integrating.

The moray is certainly moving in the right direction (though I think halving the weapons is perhaps too drastic; I'd have preferred a range reduction).

Quote: (Dobbsy @ 14 Oct. 2008, 22:33 )


They don't need to be mandatory, just remove the AMHC from the core. If you want to build your army you need to take them to get the support units to fill that army.


I'm not certain they need to be mandatory, and perhaps the toning down of other aspects of the list will lead to their being taken more anyone. I'm just throwing it out there as a topic of discussion, since I think we can all agree that the background suggests FW should be the mainstay of every Tau army, and that doesn't seem to be reflected in most lists I'm seeing at the moment.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:36 am 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 15 Oct. 2008, 00:23 )

E&C has read and reread the Taros campaign more than anyone I know of, and so has a clear idea of Tau warfare on a large scale.

I'm a nerd.  :sad:

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Onyx
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:34 am 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 15 Oct. 2008, 07:23 )

The moray is certainly moving in the right direction (though I think halving the weapons is perhaps too drastic; I'd have preferred a range reduction).

Agreed.

In a few of the recent batreps using the single shot Morays they have been missing with their attacks.
With a single shot they go from being Titan killing units to a long range attack that will be used to kill a single Basilisk/Night Spinner and break that artillery formation... Not what they are intended to be.

Keep 2 Railcannons and reduce the range to 50cm. With that range, a Moray could not double and fire into the opponents deployment zone (assuming normal set-up conditions), something that a lot of people have a problem with.

This might lead to a lot of Hero/Moray combos but with any army accept Guard (and Feral orks-Hena  :;): ), there is at least a 50% chance of being able to delay the Hero until the 2nd turn (opponent deploys their orbital support before the Tau on turn 1).

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zombocom
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:48 am 
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I'd prefer 45cm myself, for simplicity's sake (15cm multiples only), but yes, the point applies.

I have no issue with Tau having extremely powerful firepower, I just have an issue with long ranged extremely powerful firepower that ignores LOS without being markerlit.

Reduce the range on the Moray and change to always popped up and most of the problems go away.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:33 am 
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Quote: (Onyx @ 15 Oct. 2008, 02:34 )

This might lead to a lot of Hero/Moray combos but with any army accept Guard (and Feral orks-Hena  :;): ), there is at least a 50% chance of being able to delay the Hero until the 2nd turn (opponent deploys their orbital support before the Tau on turn 1).

I don't think its fair to have a powerful combo that demands such a counter measure. For Orks say the ship is useless but you would have to include it if you had any worthwhile targets. Actually since its all the same 1/3 it would encourage no useful targets to be taken at all and influence enemy lists even more!

Quote: (Dobbsy @ 14 Oct. 2008, 22:33 )

I bet BL uses Deathwheels quite frequently also....

Why is there a Deathwheel? Not being sarcastic, simple question.

I believe deathwheels came about for a heavy assault option to replace air assaults in the BL force. Plus they looked crazy.

For example the TK Moray overlaps with the AX-1-0

The moray certainly is. It fills a niche. And they are 2 different things and operate in totally different ways. One is a ground unit the other is airpower.

What is the difference between them incidentally beyond one being a ground unit and one an air unit? They seem to be gunned for the same target type. (Maybe they should lose the TK option and have to go with ion shots - though of course then overlapping with the already sorry state ion heads.)




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Dobbsy
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:54 am 
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Reduce the range on the Moray and change to always popped up and most of the problems go away

I'm not sure both options are warranted in my experience. Do one or the other.

I believe deathwheels came about for a heavy assault option to replace air assaults in the BL force
Gotcha. Well Morays have come about as a TK option....

What is the difference between them incidentally beyond one being a ground unit and one an air unit?
Is this a rhetorical question TRC? If it's not, I would say fundamentally different. Can you engage an A-X-1-0 in assault? No. Can Volcano cannons shoot at the plane? No. Can AA weapons target the Moray? No. Can Interceptors interrupt the Moray's attacks? I think you see the pattern....

Being forced to take an aircraft if you don't want to - be it due to it's cost or it's vulnerability or it's kill-ratio, whatever - is a bit counterintuitive IMO.
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zombocom
 Post subject: EA Tau - Rules Questions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:13 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 15 Oct. 2008, 03:54 )

Reduce the range on the Moray and change to always popped up and most of the problems go away

I'm not sure both options are warranted in my experience. Do one or the other.

Noone's sure yet, but that was the consensus to playtest. If it turns out that it's underpowered like that (which I doubt if it's the range rather than firepower that's reduced) it can be re-powered-up.

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