You really can't draw any conclusions from the knightworld game. You were playing against an almost untested list, and apparently using incorrect rules that overpowered the list.

Whether you like it or not, gunlines are more tactically simple than most other army styles. That's not a reflection on you, nor is it saying that you won't have to move eventually, just that the current Tau list emphasises a sit and shoot style of play, and that is irritating to play against.

Note that "simple" doesn't mean easy to win with, it just means that the tactics are obvious. Whether a gunline works or not largely comes down to the dice, and that's not much fun.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

knights could apparently close combat skimmers

Are you saying Marines don't have obvious tactics? Or Orks? Or IG...? My point is, Tau tactics may be obvious but you have to counter them just like every other army. And I simply can't believe people can't counter them.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I believe E&C was refering to the turrets.

Removing the Turrets would of course be a very good step towards getting rid of the gunline aspect.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

As I just said, removing the turrets goes a long way to getting rid of the gunline.

And yes, the Siegemasters list should certainly be changed, not sure about the steel legion though. It would be nice to make it impossible to make a fully artillery army, certainly.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

E&C - I didn't say you should be gagged and you know that mate (perish the thought   ).
You can (and do) make your point very clearly without continual reference to whats made up and what isn't (of course we are reffering to a fictional game world anyway...).

I'm amazed that people can accept certain requirements when playing, say, an Ork army (run across the board as fast as possible and beat the stuffing out of the other guys or if playing against them, don't let them get close) and can't accept that a certain style of play is needed to play (and play against) the Tau.

Zombocom - maybe you should clear your views on Tau jumpacks with Jstr19 because he has posted here that he doesn't have a problem with as is.
Quote from Jstr19
The jetpack rule I don't think needs changing anymore as we have found several ways to negate it completely

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Come on Hena, I'm sure I have in the past, do a search for old batreps (I hope I reported them!). And ML drones are 125 points. There were lots of reports pre turrets of GM armies - though the old stingrays were undoubtably a factor!

But you don't have to use GM';s for a gun line. Hammerheads are great as well, especially with the proper tourney level of terrain.


I'd like it to death incarnate at 15cm, excellent at 30-45 and good at 75. Currently it could be considered to be wieghted towards the long range options. That for me would be the firepower and movement army.


I thought Orks were all about skorchas and air assaults - guess too much facing Tim!

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My beef is that somewhere along the line the units that were 'made up' by the SG (Later NetEA) team got gratuitous, not that they exist in the first place. Without exception every one of them is an excellent machine with killing abilities far in excess of any 'canon' vehicle in its weight class. Even the NetEA Manta is far in excess of its own reflection in 40k/the FW list.


I'm amazed that people can accept certain requirements when playing, say, an Ork army (run across the board as fast as possible and beat the stuffing out of the other guys or if playing against them, don't let them get close) and can't accept that a certain style of play is needed to play (and play against) the Tau.

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Well to be honest, I play with loads of Scorchas and air assaults aswell but the idea is the same. Get in the enemies face and smash em.

E&C - I agree that some of the units need some adjustments (I've already said this before). The fact that some of these may be made up units is irrelevant.
My beef is... not that they exist in the first place

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To be fair though Onyx you do need a lot of repetition before stuff changes in the Tau list. I've harped on about airpower for ages (since early 2006?). Admittedly my alt suggestions have got a lot better in that time but otherwise little changed with the planes in the list (though it seems more people now think they are overpowered).


I'm sneaking pc time currently but did a quick search there seems to be a couple, inc. one where I got turrets wrong and thought they could only garrison on my side of the board

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I'm with TRC on this one. Lots of incredibly powerful 15cm ranged weapons, decent 30-45cm ranged weapons and longer ranged weapons that need ML to fire.

Tada, shooty but needs to be mobile.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Since E&C has issues with Stingrays (which are the ONLY 'made-up' GM-tank in the list, and were created to be the Tau Whirlwind/Manticore for infantry crowd control at range.):  

Question:  Given normal deployment of troops and transports, how many targets can you fit under the small blast circle?  (Let's assume a mechanized infantry formation is the target)

Answer:  By my count, you average 3 targets 5cm base-to-base, and from BATREP pictures, people are usually half that distance.  That makes 6 targets under the template.  One Whirlwind could therefore hit 3-6 targets.  Mechanized infantry, especially IG, shelter next to their transports, which makes it easier to hit everything.  4 Whirlwinds could hit 6-12 targets (2 templates @ 4BP, although 8-9 is most likely), they're also more likely to hit because of the BP table.

Tau don't use BP weapons, therefore 4 Stingrays should be able to hit 6-12 targets (average 8-9) with their primary weapon system.  (originally, I had not included regular GMs in the design, stingrays were AP-only.  JimmyGrill insisted that they should be able to kill AV as well, and added Seeker GMs.)  Assuming mech-inf targets, that means 2-4 AVs and 4-8 infantry stands 'under the template(s)'.  Where was the 'broken' part of 2x AP and 1x AT?  Oh, yeah.  formations of 6+, and those [censored] markerlight turrets.  Mostly the turrets.

4 Whirlwinds were more effective than 4 Stingrays (even 2x AP), but 3 Stingrays beat 3 Whirlwinds (or did with 2x AP and 1x AT), 1-2 Whirlwinds were about equal to 1-2 Stingrays.

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