CS, without your grandad and his friends Malta could've well been a very different place from what it is today, and I might never have existed.

WI - was your grandmother Maltese then? Or British serving here?
The Gloster Sea Gladiators - there were actually more than 3, but never moer than 4 operational! In fact the lot of 7 (I think) came in RN crates which were kept here purposefully by the RAF commander as the only (then) means of defence. Bits of the 7 were used to keep a number flying.
They played their part and enjoyed some success - even when the first Hurricanes arrived. The Faith Hope and Charity epithet was coined by the newspapers - as far as I now it was never really used. Until, many years later, the same wing was re-created on a very distant island - the Falklands, in fact - with Phantoms. They were promptly named Faith, Hope, Charity - and Desperation   And I'm not making this one up.

All my grandparents were civilians - one couple lived in Valletta, and with my mother and uncles were quite thoroughly bombed (mum thinks she remembers civilians being strafed as well, something I never read happening here); on one occasion almost drowned when an air raid shelter (big underground tunnels here) was flooded by a cistern due to bomb damage. Grandad was a boilermaker in the Dockyard, and must have been through a lot, although he never spoke much about it. All I ever heard was his recollection of a long row of young dead sailors laid in rows on the deck of HMS Illustrious when she holed up here for a couple of days.

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Back from oblivion (again)?

I too have heard similiar acounts about Somalia, TRC. Of course my little vicarious scenario only covers the rescue portion of the battle. It's not the first time US troops were sent on a mission without clear objectives. And inturn "Mission Creep" slithers in based on the situation on the ground. Not in DC ...  And of course not follwing up is a mistake many a commander has made. IMO once all Friendlys were out of the AO as soon as possible, I would have continued to insure the enemy knew he made a mistake. Counterattacking with firepower and on the ground. However, after seeing dead US troops being dragged thru the streets, on a mission that started out being humanitarian. With strong racial overtones and insinuations by the media, NGOs, etc.   DC decided to cut it's losses, so to speak.  However at least one US Mech Heavy Co. Tm arrived in country long after the battle was over to ensure that another Blackhawk Down wouldn't happen again.  And once again the enemies of the US, UBL in particular, read into it that once you give the Americans a bloody nose they don't have the stomach for it and will leave.  Saddam thought the same thing before the first Gulf War. Basing his assumptions on the US leaving Vietnam after taking "enough" casualties ...  Of course history will note that as of today Saddam is dead, Somalia is no better now then the day the last Western soldier left, UBL is hiding in a cave in the NWF and 60% of Vietnam's trade is with the US ...  And Sorry to ramble on ...

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

I think we can all agree that things never go to plan whither it's in war or not. I defy anyone to not become just a little complacent if they are continually repeating the same task no matter how important it is. I also remember from the books that the Somalians where reported to have used women and children as shields to discourage return fire. Perhaps this had an impact on the amount of civilian casualties too.

I would agree that some very bad mistakes were made as shown in the books and Film but despite the errors higher up the troops on the ground dealt with the situation as best they could and on the whole came through a very bad situation. Respect where it's due they were in the fire and managed to survive. Lets not try to second guess by hindsight what happened. That's what the higher echelons are for.

Modern warfare to me is scary. Walls are no longer cover they're just main highways for bullets to go down. Forrest are not much cover either it's just another opportunity for artillery to show what they've got. I prefer the idea of Sword/Mace/Axe etc, a Shield maybe some armour and an enemy less well fed and smaller than you to wade into. (Hey, they started it!)

CS + Vanvlak - This is a fascinating insight into the Siege and History of Malta. Thanks for posting.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

The problem was not in the execution but the planning.  The original mission called for armored vehicles and AC-130 fire support.  Our President at the time (Clinton) refused both those assets to be used.  So they had to make do with Hummers, trucks, and support from SOAR.

The administration doubled it's folly by then pulling out and running.  Had they not, we may not see that region as such a hot spot for piracy today.  To say nothing of the impression that the US is weak and will run away if given a hard time.  That just makes your following engagements all the more fun.

Collateral damage?  How can that be divined in a place such as Somalia where the militia wears no uniform and even the women and children will pick up a weapon?  I've seen it in Iraq and the same applies here:  How can you tell the difference between a dead insurgent and a dead civilian?  Somebody picked up their weapon.

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I want to revisit the (in)famous Battle of the Waterbed With 3 Blondes.

I think that is traditionally referred to as the battle of little big boobs. Yes, that is a case for dying in bed right enough.  

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Oh yes, the troops fought their way out magnificently considering they were essentially light infantry. In a city. Fighting in cities, as everyone has rediscovered in Iraq, is a nasty business. Moreso if you are a bunch of infantry with cars.

Civilian casualties were of course hard to ascertain, but not impossible. Most bluntly you could take those who were on the US’s side and who were against (with the city split into rough zones) and even then sadly a bunch of people copped it who were on the Yanks side. Some of the tactics, though breathtaking in their execution, ensured that – stuff like the little helicopters flying down to a meter or so off the ground then raking an arc in front of them with their mini guns. Amazing skill, sadly high velocity rounds go through a lot of people and poorly constructed buildings before stopping.

Still what can you do as a soldier? Fundamentally you want to get out alive with the rest of the people on your side and everything is secondary. Then further throwing in a bunch of people who are trained for different types of warfare into city fighting where no one has a clue whose side the people in front of you are on and it was inevitable lots of people would die if their operations ever did break down into a battle.

Entertainingly the leader of same clan the US was fighting died a while later, to be replaced by his son who had himself apparently been a US Marine during the first – widely praised – part of the mission.

I don’t think many blame the US troops, there is an ethos of doing the job so expecting them to turn round and tell the elected bosses back home this might not go to well wasn’t going to happen. I’m perpetually baffled at forces that have the mandate to bring in heavy gear yet choose not to do so. I recognise it costs but anything else just seems to be crossing your fingers and hoping for the best.

So anyway, back to not fighting wars as it rarely seems to come out well (I believe it has been pointed out you have a better than even chance of losing ).

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Well put Chap Lev, Warhead and TRC ... Somalia is a hot button item for me. And it annoys me that the US support that was needed was available but not in country ...                                            And on the other hand ... O-man ... Warhead ...  You're Taysider predilections are showing !!  

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

For me, as for any swede, there is really only Poltava. It must have been tragic and spectacular at the same time. 6000 out of the total 17 000 swedish troops were killed in one day. And theres so much we need to know. Why did Roos get stuck on the 3rd redoubt with the Dalecarlians? Was the swedish gunpowder really wet? What did the banquet after the battle look like? And, most of all, what really happened at Perevolotjna when the army surrendered?

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"We are the sword of fire with which the Traitors shall be cut down."

Man! google time again...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Poltava

Another great read and learn for me. Cheers Brother-Captain Parzval.  

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Swedens finest hour ended up only being a footnote in the story of Russias rise to power, but better than nothing I guess  

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"We are the sword of fire with which the Traitors shall be cut down."

as a Swede, I'm surp[rised you didn't mention King Gustavus Adolphus who was widely acknowledged as one of the military genius' of all time; and his final battle of Leutzen in 1632

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"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

As a Dane I can't really brag about any particular military accomplishments on behalf of my country, as we seem to have lost most wars we've been engaged in for the past 400 years (damn you swedes   )

Interesting battles would be the naval battle of Jutland during WW1 (not quite swashbuckler style up close and personal, but still plenty of big guns), Austerlitz, and pretty much any of Alexanders major battles.

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Sofa General

Nobody expects the Inquisition!!!
http://theepiclounge.wordpress.com/

If I can just change the direction and tempo of my own topic (see it's not just your threads I do this to) I would like to include Fictional Film battles too. Mine would be... (Probably because I have just finished watching it)


The Ride of the Rohirrim against the Orks on the fields of Pelennor. Ridding like the wind and twating Orks over the head, who could ask more!

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

KELLEY'S HEROES !!!    

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."