...when we discuss which units should be 'dropped', please bear this in mind and perhaps some units should be relegated in order to make an appearance in a later, variant list. Again, this will be open to discussion, but I am currently in favour of a single list, and it will be difficult to change my mind on this.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Sorry. I dont mean that I will be recommending that tournaments use the Tau list, for exactly the reasons that you mention. But, if players want a competitive list for tournaments or a more balanced game, versions v4.5.x will be work in progress versions and probably not ideal.

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https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

I thought that I was being clearer. I am currently not for any sub or variant lists. I want to make a single, encompassing list work. That doesnt mean that every unit possible must be put in. The focus should be on a single, general list. We may need or feel that we should drop some units - as has been mentioned in the past - but these can be considered as dropped from the main list and could be included in the future variants, if needed.

However, development should concentrate on a single list. Get that right first. If we want variant lists in the future, we will have plenty of material to add - new units from FW, units that are dropped, variant unit stats, new fan units, new 40K additions, etc.

I dont seriously think that we will run out of material for any amount of variant lists if wanted. The problem is holding them back!

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https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

Well, that does make it clearer, but it also means that you have taken one of the biggest topics of how to develop the Tau off the table.

FYI I wasn't suggesting developing several variants in tandem, but a loose idea of what variant lists could be coming down the pipeline might make the unit decisions easier.  Ex. Proponents of a Sniper Drone Team might be more inclined to dump them from the main list if they knew a Drone-heavy list was coming down the pipeline at some point.

At this point though I guess it doesn't matter.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Hmmm...

Well, I see where you're coming from now.  I know every discussion I've had on these forums since the 4e (Tau Empire) codex came out made the assumption that the E:A Tau list was going to operate like 40k Tau (in your face, killing your dudes).  Time to review every unit in the list for coherence with 'please, Aun'O, don't let them get close' gameplay.

I think I'm actually behind the one-list idea, although that does raise some balancing issues.  With a one-list philosophy, the list needs to be able to spam several different units/capabilities, all of which are going to be pointed to as examples of why the Tau list is broken (drones, GMs, and Morays immediately come to mind).

I just don't know how to stop that issue from distracting us.

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"For the Lion and the Emperor!"

That is gonna be tough; The list has been approached with an 'all-in-one' philosophy for years now and still has serious balance issues.

If you intend to push forwards with the 'all-in' list style, I would hope that we'll see more regular updates than we have seen in the past (Ie: Not once every six months/year, but more like once every two months). That's what I'd hope for anyway.

Cheers.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I would hope that we'll see more regular updates than we have seen in the past

Well, that does make it clearer, but it also means that you have taken one of the biggest topics of how to develop the Tau off the table.

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https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

So whats first so we know what we should be testing?

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CS,

I fully support your effort behind the single list effort. First,I really struggle with the logic that balancing multiple lists is easier/more effective/as productive as creating one list that is flexible. Secondly, variant lists can always be developed from the foundation of a solid core list.

And if you are ever unsure as to whether this approach is correct, just go over to the Eldar section and look at what happened when all the variant lists came out and they hadn't completed the details of the core list.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

I count Jervis as not the worst games designer in the world, and he reckons that smaller 'themed' lists are easier to balance, and more characterful to boot, than 'all in one' lists.

I used to believe that all-in-one lists were preferable, but now I believe that when you try and cram every list style into one, you end up with a predictable result: Min-max combinations that eclipse much of the list.

The more variables (List Options) there are, the harder it is to maintain a stable state (That's elementary Chaos Theory).

Secondly, variant lists can always be developed from the foundation of a solid core list.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Chroma asked me to re-post this here, we were talking about how the Tau rely on air power (AX-1-0's) in the background/ Warhammer 40,000 to deal with enemy Titans, and Onyx thought that having such a weakness wouldn't work at Epic scale, which is why the Tau need the Moray, as their primary anti-titan unit.

I posted the following in response:



Armies are supposed to have weaknesses, and this is supposed to be one of the Tau's weak points.

The NetEA list is consistent in that where the Tau have a weakness in Warhammer 40,000/the background, something is added to fill the gap.

So the Tau don't have a way to fight enemy Titans toe-to-toe? Add the Moray to fight Reavers and upgrade the Manta so that it can fight Warlords and win.

The Tau don't have massed artillery like the IG? Add the Scorpionfish and Stingray.

The Tau don't have a Vanquisher-analgoue? Add the Swordfish.

The Tau aren't good at Close Combat? Allow their Jetpack units to avoid Close Combats.

Etc.

Armies are supposed to have weaknesses.

Marines are rubbish at long range shooting.
Orks are rubbish at undertaking certain kinds of order, and largely fail at ranged shooting.
The Steel Legion are rubbish at close combat and have no Teleport units or assault aircraft.
Eldar have paper thin armour.
Tyranids are crippled if you kill their Synapse creatures.
Necrons need their Monoliths to stay operational.
Dark Eldar crumble if you even look at them funny.
AMTL have few activations.
The Minervan IG have rubbish CC stats and no cheap infantry to hold ground.
The Death Korps of Krieg have very expensive core formations and only a limited choice of core formations.


What is the Tau's weakness?

- Average Firefight values and above-average armour values?


I'd include 'poor CC values' there, but the Tau have Special Rules to allow their important units to avoid close combats. Skimmers can firefight, Jetpackers can hop back. Only the poor Fire Warriors are left with no cool trump card.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

FF5+ is fine, especially when combined with the average-to-excellent armour saves of the Tau formations. The Tau are an *average* Firefight army at worst. Not a drawback.

No BP weapons. This allows enemy to bunch up a lot more.