Ok, look at it from this point of view.  A moray has all the weapons of a Reaver, with half the DC, has better weapon range and moves faster.

That makes the Moray either overgunned or undercosted.

Yes, everything in the game can draw LOS to it (and a single Shadowsword on overwatch can hard-kill a Moray with good dice).  If the Moray goes first, it smashes the Shadowsword company by itself.  If the Shadowsword company goes first, it vapes the Moray.  The game/combat effectiveness is too dependent on the 'who goes first' roll to be able to point it appropriately.

I do not like the idea of a hard limit on Support Craft.  Bring them down to weapon mount parity with similar-DC Titans (So the DC3 Moray would have one major weapon mount and the secondary missile battery.  Ditto the Scorp'fish.  Manta is going to be weird, what with it's Reaver-level guns and SMLC transport capability).

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Thanks for clarifying the Orbital rules for me TRC. We have always played it as I wrote it but I'm sure that almost always reflected the official rules (we'll get it right one day...   ).

You should probably include all the races with the same strategy rating aswell (a much larger list including - Feral Orks, Necron, Dark Eldar, Orks and also still to be finalised - AMTL, Knightworld list, Cadian Strike Force, Squats etc) as they will obviously be able to deploy Spacecraft before the Tau 50% of the time.

Both of those are not ideal examples as both have highly effective counter measures.

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A reduced range would certainly be a very good start, as would a 350 point price to remove the possibility of taking 3 in a 3000 point game.

However you are wrong about Reaver manouverability. Walker doesn't let them move through impassible terrain like buildings, so they are nowhere near as quick as the crow flies.

The support craft rule is also proposterous when it comes to ranges. The support craft might have to be hundreds of metres into the air to be able to see a unit, yet can still be hit just as easily by a 15cm ranged weapon? Does not compute.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

The support craft rule is also proposterous when it comes to ranges. The support craft might have to be hundreds of metres into the air to be able to see a unit, yet can still be hit just as easily by a 15cm ranged weapon? Does not compute

Not abstract, just a bad mechanic.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

If you have included them in your army...

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Hena: With the Support Craft rule changed to 'always popped up' you can reduce the Moray's line of fire a bit by hiding behind a tall building.

With less weapons on the Moray/Manta as proposed above, they will be less incredibly powerful.

Without one or both mods, Morays especially remain point-click-kill units.

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This thread is becoming a broken record.

People make suggestions, some compromise to get a middle ground (I certainly have changed a few of my thoughts as these threads have evolved), others keep on beating the same old drum beat without any heed to others point of view.

I really have nothing new to add here (I wish I did so this thread could actually be more than a Tau bash - unfair, unofficial don't help this discussion).

I'll probably give this thread a break for a while (I'll certainly still be reading the posts) as I'm quite fed up with all the different points of view and very little compromise.

If the list changes don't suit everyone (and how can they with so many opposing views) how will it ever be considered acceptable?
It doesn't look like theres any common ground here at all.
There are already people here who won't play against them...
How will that change if they don't get what they want?

Hena, I have no personal experience with the Feral Orks but I would have thought they'd still be able to kill the rest of the army and then see how the fantastic, amazing and un-killable Morays win then. Sorry I can't be more helpful mate.
By the way, how do they go against Guard artillery/Deathstrikes?
Surely it's a similar story?

Hopefully this isn't too melodramatic, I don't mean it to be. I just don't see there being easy, correct, playable solutions right now. I hope I'm wrong (it won't be the first time...   )
Steve.

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Except the moray can see over other war engines, because it's special like that.

Onyx: note that i'm also not a fan of deathstrikes. Constantly using them as a comparrison isn't going to win me over.

To my mind, the most important question for any unit, especially a made-up one, is this:

"Does it make the game more fun for both players?"

We all play this game for fun, and if we start adding units that make the game less fun then we're undercutting ourselves.

Morays definately make the game less fun.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I agree with Onyx that all has been said, all points have been made and reiterated several times.

What we need now is a verdict by CS, a set of stats and/or rules changes to playtest.

I´d love to have a somewhat balanced list by early next year when I plan to get my Tau Army.

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Ok, so since we're not going to agree, why don't we each post exactly what stat/rule changes we'd like to see for the moray? i'll admit that I'm unlikely to get my way and have it dropped entirely, so in the mean time:


I'd like to see the support craft rule changes to "always popped up".
I'd like the range on the main weapons to be reduced to 45 (or 60 at absolute max)
I'd like the cost to go up to 350 to stop people taking 3 in 3000 points.


If others would care to do the same, CS can get a good idea of where the debate is at.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Good summary, Zombocom!

Moray m/asaura is as follows:
- Support craft = "always popped up".
- (no need to reduce range, the pop-up thing is enough)
- points up to 350.

I have no opinion on self-planetfalling Mantas. I don't play with the Manta, personally, so I don't care. Once Hena gets his army online and I start facing it, expect to see me start to care

My take:

Support craft rule changes to "always popped up".

I'd like the main armament halved (it´s way OTT IMO), instead of
2x Railcannon 75cm MW3+ Titan Killer (D3), Fixed Forward Arc
OR: 2 x Heavy Ion Phalanx 60cm 3 x AP3+/AT3+ Fixed Forward Arc

make that

1x Railcannon 75cm MW3+ Titan Killer (D3), Fixed Forward Arc
OR: 1 x Heavy Ion Phalanx 60cm 3 x AP3+/AT3+ Fixed Forward Arc
Ranges are okay with APU.

Change deflectors to 5+ (per TRC)
Allow planetfall (but not self-planetfall)

Cost @ +/- 300 with all of the above changes, possibly 275 as this would allow 3 Morays and a Hero to drop them should be okay with the changes.

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