Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Tau Indirect Fire rule

 Post subject: Tau Indirect Fire rule
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Well Dobsy, which is it?

I'm not entirely sure of your question TRC  :vo but if it is what I think you mean, like I said the wording could be adjusted. How does this sound:

"Units with the Guided Missile designation in their data sheet may fire at targets without LOS, out to their maximum range, if conducting a Sustained Fire action. They still receive the +1 to hit for doing so as the normal Indirect Fire rules dictate. Conducting any other firing order requires a Tau unit with a Markerlight to be within 30cm of the target to benefit from a +1 To hit."

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Indirect Fire rule
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:54 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
Quote: (Dobbsy @ 30 Sep. 2008, 23:23 )

I'm not entirely sure of your question TRC  :vo but if it is what I think you mean, like I said the wording could be adjusted. How does this sound:

"Units with the Guided Missile designation in their data sheet may fire at targets without LOS, out to their maximum range, if conducting a Sustained Fire action. They still receive the +1 to hit for doing so as the normal Indirect Fire rules dictate. Conducting any other firing order requires a Tau unit with a Markerlight to be within 30cm of the target to benefit from a +1 To hit."

I think you mean
GM units shoot as normal. If a target is lit they get +1 to hit.
If sustaining they can ignore LoS.

I think Onyx thinks you mean
GM units shoot as normal, if a target is lit they get +1 to hit and can ignore LoS.
If sustaining they can ignore LoS.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Indirect Fire rule
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:15 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
Posts: 3416
Location: Western Australia
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 01 Oct. 2008, 18:54 )

Quote: (Dobbsy @ 30 Sep. 2008, 23:23 )

I'm not entirely sure of your question TRC  :vo but if it is what I think you mean, like I said the wording could be adjusted. How does this sound:

"Units with the Guided Missile designation in their data sheet may fire at targets without LOS, out to their maximum range, if conducting a Sustained Fire action. They still receive the +1 to hit for doing so as the normal Indirect Fire rules dictate. Conducting any other firing order requires a Tau unit with a Markerlight to be within 30cm of the target to benefit from a +1 To hit."

I think you mean
GM units shoot as normal. If a target is lit they get +1 to hit.
If sustaining they can ignore LoS.

I think Onyx thinks you mean
GM units shoot as normal, if a target is lit they get +1 to hit and can ignore LoS.
If sustaining they can ignore LoS.

Very nicely summerised TRC!  :smile:

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Indirect Fire rule
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:10 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
Well, I don't like the idea.  GMs have always been a no-LOS weapon, why should I have to stop moving in order to shoot over those trees when I know through the datalink where the target is roughly, and there's a laser dot on the target for the missile to go find?

I'd prefer the FW GM rule (no GM fire if target isn't Marked, and GMs don't need LOS.  Markerlights need LOS).

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Indirect Fire rule
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:30 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
I agree@LitS
Plus Markerlight should provide +1 to hit for other weapons.
Hmm or better: You receive a +1 bonus for a Sustain action if the intended target is marked.
This the Markerlights effect shouldn't be usable for the formation which marks an enemy formation. But formation which are made entirely of units with NetworkeMarkerlights can do so (units with Network Markerlights are the Manta, the Skyray, the Tiger Shark AX-1-0, the DX-6 Remora).

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Indirect Fire rule
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:00 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
This is getting very close to my suggestion of letting Markerlight add both a bonus and extra range to the appropriate weapon systems. IMHO this represents an extension of the Markerlight and indirect fire principles that brings out the way the Tau technology works. Some details would need clarification eg.
    - Units with ML need range and LOS to the target formation and cannot operate if broken.
    - ML weapons do not need to sustain to fire, and ML bonus is in addition to sustain bonus
    - GM need not have LoF to a markerlit target, but do need LoF to other targets
    - Other weapons need LoF to shoot, even if the target is Markerlit (after all they are 'unguided')
    - ML bonus and range would need to be deducted from the basic stats of the relevant weapons.

However, while this expresses one way of developing the mechanism, there are others who prefer to simplify the mechanics absorbing the details into the weapon stats and assuming that ML is always switched on (Dobbsy's suggestion).

=======================================================
Ok, to move the whole debate on slightly, rather than repeating everything again, could we try a straw poll on the principles that we want to see operating here? If CS is Ok, I think there should be three options

  • Simplify ML and GM process as outlined by Dobbsy, bringing everything back into the weapon stats etc.

  • Keep ML and GM working as currently, revising the unit stats as need be

  • Extend ML to other weapon systems as outlined above, reducing the Weapon stats accordingly.

Note
1) This is a vote on the principles not the details of how ML and weapons should work in E:A
2) Stats and costs for Drones and Turrets should be considered following the poll, which should simplify the debate.
3) If possible, consider reviewing Support Craft and Planetfall rules later too (though this is harder)

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Indirect Fire rule
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia
As I've mentioned in another thread, my vote would be option 2, otherwise option 1. option 3 does not sit right with me and I wouldn't vote for it as it throws the list out the window and means we have to retest every unit type.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Indirect Fire rule
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:55 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
Making ML's effect everything would I think be a nightmare to balance and make them the absolute keystone of the army. In the current format that means a stack of heavy drones and pathfinders and stingrays plus a ML upgrade (adding pathfinders, skyrays etc to a formation) for everyone that can have it!

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Indirect Fire rule
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:54 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
Agreed, Option 3 is a huge change to the way the list works (and I don't like it anyway).  It's worth noting that 4e Tau didn't need markerlights to be effective (my usual 4e army had NO markerlights in it at all, just to prove the point).  Since markerlights can counteract cover saves and 5e is all about the cover save, they've become much more useful (and used) in 5e.

In all honesty, I thought that the weapon stats already included ML support for everything but GMs.  I would add that I support a slight range increase to the GMs, coupled with a the removal of 'unguided' mode.  Obviously this would NOT apply to aircraft, and probably shouldn't apply to AA missiles.

If we do this right, we can reduce the number and complexity of Special Rules slightly, and make a lot more thought go into the way the army fights.

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Indirect Fire rule
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:03 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
Thanks guys, though I was trying to get down to the desired underlying principles rather than the details. As I said earlier, ML and the stats etc can be adjusted once we are agreed on how the rules should work in principle.

My point is that people seem to have different understanding and preferences on just how far we should use special rules and unit stats to bring out the particular way the Tau fight. Consider LiTS response above where he assumes that the stats include the benefit of ML where appropriate - and I am sure that others are making equally valid but opposite presumtions. So it is small wonder that we end up with circular arguments over the details of how this aspect of the lists should work.

So, ignoring the details a second, are people looking to generalise the particular Tau characteristics within the unit stats, or should we try to bring out the particular characteristics by having different units and rules to govern how they interact?

Once we agree on the general principles here (and for other areas), then we can consider how to modify the details to suit - and I might add that I don't think any of the options will require a 'retest of every unit' at that point. However taking this approach will inform decisions on which units / formations can have ML and other abilities; and the particular upgrades that are deemed to be appropriate.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Indirect Fire rule
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:46 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
My opinion about how GMs should work in E:A:

1) GMs are the ONLY weapon in the Tau list that does not need LOS.  Every other weapon is direct-fire.  In addition, Tau DO NOT have BM-weapons in the army list.

2) GMs cannot fire without a lit target (ie, Markerlight within 30cm).  (keeps the 40k mechanic)

3) GMs have better range than any other weapon in Tau list (90-105cm). (corresponds to 40k, but does actually put a range on the GMs)

4) Any bonus due to markerlight effects is already assumed in weapon stats for all other weapons.  (That way, the only interaction to balance is ML/GM).

Any questions/issues that I didn't address?

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Indirect Fire rule
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:26 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
Lion - That's basically the mechanic used in the FW list, and it works well.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Indirect Fire rule
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:39 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
I know.  Just figured I'd get my stance as clearly enumerated as possible.  I don't like much of the FW list structure, but the FW Manta and the GM rules I do like.

Just wish we could move away from the 40k 3e list design and have the E:A tau play like they do in 4e/5e.

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Indirect Fire rule
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:33 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
(Could you remind me again how they play :) )

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tau Indirect Fire rule
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:04 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
My current phrase for the 3e playfeel:  "Please, Aun'O, don't let them get close!"  This tended to be a gunline, unless you liked battlesuits.  Battlesuits were far more mobile and demanded a lot of thought.

Basically, engage targets at max range in a gunline, unless you're using thin area terrain and bouncing Crisis suits.  For all intents and purposes, battlesuits were your only maneuver elements, and there was no point to take Markerlights.  If the enemy got within 18", you have lost the game, because you couldn't move (either to close, or to open the range) and rapid-fire.

3e I operated a Crisis suit horde, 10-12 Crisis, 2-3 individual Broadsides, with two squads of FW on foot to hold my board-edge.

4e Phrase: "N UR face, killin UR dudes!" to use the 1337.  Very aggressive, and operating in firefights.  Tau were still horrible in CC, but ruled everything in FF.  Also, Tau had new (Vespid) or revised (Kroot) allies to cover the CC weakness.  Also added units to pin enemy in place (sniper drones), and fast-movers to hunt/kill armor (Piranhas).

4e (haven't played since 5e came out) is much more mobile, favoring FW in Devilfish operating extremely close to the enemy (inside rapid-fire range of 12"!).  DFish are kitted with some protective elements to keep them moving, 24 FW + 2 DFish drive up to target, jump out, and then shoot a target squad out of existence, DFish bat cleanup (48 shots/24hits/16-20 wounds just from FW, most things get NO save, and even Marines lose 4 models. 14 shots/7hits/4-5 wounds from DFish).  Lather, Rinse, Repeat until enemy has been defeated in detail.  The enemy has a better chance of killing some Tau this way if Tau have bad dice, but it tends to result in mass casualties for both sides.

I tended to put 4 DFish on the table, 2 on each flank, battlesuits up the middle loaded for tank-killing at close range.

With the changes to 5e, the Crisis horde is gone (unless you're playing 'Ard Boys 2500-point games), because you need to have at least 4 troop choices for a competitive force, and 6 is better.  Vehicles are harder to kill in general, but Skimmers are more vulnerable (lost the protection of 'Skimmers moving Fast').  Also, it's harder for Crisis suits to hide due to True LoS and no area terrain.  This further shifts the metagame to more FW, which ideally operate close to the enemy.

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net