Bizzarely I was about to suggest exactly this idea!

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

a Daemon Prince (inv save better armour etc)

Black Legion's idea is kinda what I had in mind for quite a long time. I think it would be much simpler that way and would require far less special rules than before - which is, to me, a very good thing.

I would tend to remove the "disposable" rule from daemons that way. After all, in the fluff, Chaos Space Marines don't really treat them like they were nothing since daemons are very powerfull beings - and avatars of Chaos being destroyed isn't especially reassuring for the mortal soldiers of the formation summoning them.

That would be even more true for the Lost and the Damned.

Hm no. Lesser Daemons are cattle for CSM but Grater Daemons are respectful and powerful beings. Icons of their Gods.
Lesser Daemons should be expendable but Greater Daemons not.

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That's probably my mistake Ginger, assuming the DP got all the Lord abilities!

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Why have the teleport rules? Why not you buy x demons and they appear before any activation you want.

If you want a downside to stop units using them as grots make them last one turn only? (Maybe keep the icon.)

Another twist could be to make them appear in the teleport phase for all formations that want them that turn?

Giving them blast markers though is damn tough for an assault formation. I would be in two minds about it.

The point about GD's.

How about you get it as above but must sacrifice a unit of cult marines? Maybe even per turn (have to think of a justification).

Etc.

Anyway all the above makes it a) more predictable and b) easier in some ways.

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
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General Plumer, 191x

Guys, the point here is not just about the additional characters but about formation power and they way that the BL power is racked up by these additional upgrades and units.

At 390, the Chaos Terminators are 50% more powerfull than their marine counterparts. Having the ability to add 3-4 Lesser daemons for 85-105 points extra (each with a double attack) effectively doubles the power of the formation, and makes it '3' times the power of the Marines for 25% extra cost.

So at ~500 points you have a formation that (all else being equal ***) can kick out something like '4'MW and '8' normal hits in CC which on average should expect around 4 kills on 4+RA armour - so has a reasonable (though not infailible) chance of killing a Reaver. If we add all the trimmings, at 665 the formation will almost certainly kill the Reaver, and has a good chance of destroying a Warlord titan (more than likely due to criticals).

Conversley, if the Reaver goes first and sustains, it can expect to get '5' AP hits against the terminator RA or ~1-2 kills (which might be enough to break the formation if it has 2xBM from teleporting). If the Warlord goes first and sustains, it will probably get 2-3 kills and probably break the formation.

So neither of the titans have much chance of destroying the Chaos Terminators outright in this way and in practice the formation is still viable, so it would also need to be targetted by several other formations in order to destroy it.

*** Note, I am just making a straight power comparison here ignoring any other factors. As we know, there are several ways that a good defence or just 'dumb' luck can affect the actual combat.

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Ok, I know I have been repeating myself here, and before you all shout, IMHO the LD extra attack is a major factor in this particular problem, together with the 4+ armour and 4+ assault.

If we run the same analysis against the titans assuming a single 4+ attack, you need '6' daemons to get the same results, or a total cost of 685 (with daemons @ 20 points) or 715 (@ 25 points each). A little more in line with the titans.

Equally compared with the termies, '4' extra daemons provide around 25% extra hits for around 25% extra cost - and more if you buy the IB to make them permanent.

So, as another alternative, could we perhaps consider dropping their assault factors to a single 4+ or 3+ attack and increasing the base cost to 25 points (in the BL list at least)?

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Ginger, you are not seriously comparing a formation whose only effective maneuver is charge to CC to weapon-laden Titans with serious firepower out to 60cm and a number of Void Shields to protect against shooting (though, conveniently, not against the CC scenario), come to the conclusion that, yes, for the same points value the CC formation actually will win in its preferred environment and then claim that something is wrong?

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I did say I was trying to compare power ignoring all other factors. The point is not the way the Chosen work, but rather the additional power that the Daemons provide

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

If you were trying to make a point, why not pit the Termies against an Artillery Coy, 650 points, they´ll get slaughtered. As a matter of fact, 150 points of Rough Riders would probably decisively defeat artillery.


What some people are missing it the fact that daemons are the great equalizer for BL, and in an army that lacks Thunderhawks, ATSKNF, Shadowswords, Deathstrikes, Vultures, Wraithgates, Warp Spiders, Warlock Titans, Skorchas, Fighta-Bommers, Zzap-Guns or Supa-Stompas is what it takes to achieve decisive results. In that context, the stats are correct and they are priced accordingly.
Nerf this option and you geld the army.

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With respect, the difference between Terminators and Rough-riders is that the Terminators can teleport into position where the RR cannot - and so the RR would be obliterated by the opposing formation before they got into position


However to the other point, I agree that Daemons are intended to compensate (at least in part) for the other factors listed. My contention (obviously) is that they seem to over compensate, at least in the BL army.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Its a bit of a bizarre comparison though since there is a ton of things that you have to ignore to do it. Ranged weapons and Void Shields being the most obvious.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Hena, if you check the original post, you will find that I also went through the scenario of the Chosen going second. Even if they sustained on the Chosen (which is probably their strongest means of attacking the enemy) they are very unlikely to be able to destroy the Chosen outright (unless the BL player is using my dice of course )

Usually in a straight power comparison like this, the results are fairly similar and scoring the same number of hits using the 'preferred' or strongest means of attack. But here, we have two formations that are equivalent in DC, where the results are far from equal.

My contention is that this imbalance is at least in part because of the power of the daemons being summoned, which significantly boost the offensive strength of this (or any) formation.

And yes in reality there are options open to either player. In reality, much depends upon the strategic rating of the races involved. Happily in this instance we can project the example onto the two scenarios of BL Vs Space marines and BL Vs IG.
- Against SM, the Chosen are likely to go second and the Reaver will walk away (unless it is surrounded by teleporting Chosen of course )
- Against the IG, the Reaver is likely to be toast (assuming the BL player has used some other means to clear a path to it. )

In both cases, the Chosen will survive the first activations and can attempt to camp out on the opponents Blitz; and will certainly draw the attention of the enemy - which is why you fill the formation up with Fearless DP and Obliterators, so that when it eventually gets broken it can still camp in place and spawn more Daemons.

Indeed, an equally nasty idea would be to upgrade a Chosen(4) formation with three Obliterators and pact, and teleport into the enemy army. Costing 510 and summoning an average of '4' Daemons this is going to hurt, and may arguably be more survivable than the 565 Chosen +trimings above.

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