Sure. You're absolutely right, as it stands Obliterators are still an option for Chaos Terminators. If Obliterators aren't attractive then I'm happy to drop them back to 75 or whatever is appropriate. They're still a Fearless infantry unit with a MW attack and considerable firepower, which is why I'm being cautious with the points value.

Harbinger: I agree that it is unlikely we will get enough playtest time with it to balance it for the list. But we can still stick it there to be tested if anyone wants to give it a pop. I suppose it corresponds most closely to the Space Marine Landing Craft, but really taking 4 Hell Talons would provide a similar effect.

Hellblade: The save is to represent maneuverability and to give it a measure of protection against defensive flak mounted on enemy bombers.

Defilers: These were the stats that were a general consensus a while ago. I personally am not sure they shouldn't simply be Move 25cm. Now that they're not barrage, whole-defiler formations might be a possibility (there's one in the Emperor's Children) but lets not change too much all at once, eh?

It does make it look compabable to the other fighters in the game, where everywhere states its just to light to do much except swarm. Dropping the save shows this and means what? If you attack 9 bombers with a swarm of planes you will lose 6 instead of 5?

It still gets the jink - and with a large formation of three fighters the first one can jink and the other two attack, not really possibly with 2 squadron expensive planes, but effectively boosting the save from nothing to 4+ against the first hit.

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Huh? I thought they were being removed?

Harbinger: I agree that it is unlikely we will get enough playtest time with it to balance it for the list. But we can still stick it there to be tested if anyone wants to give it a pop. I suppose it corresponds most closely to the Space Marine Landing Craft, but really taking 4 Hell Talons would provide a similar effect.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Hellblades: sounds reasonable enough. If you want to playtest them with no save, go ahead and see how they do. You think they need to be in bigger formations (or have the option?) in order to survive the flak?

Obliterators: after all that discussion, they never got removed from Chosen. With the removal of AA, is it still an issue?

Desecrator: I was thinking of modelling it so it just had normal claws (like the Soulgrinder) rather than big crabby claws. Obviously it was just a way to try and make it less of a no-brainer compared with the Defiler.

Probably not.

Desecrator: I was thinking of modelling it so it just had normal claws (like the Soulgrinder) rather than big crabby claws. Obviously it was just a way to try and make it less of a no-brainer compared with the Defiler.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

In general I love it. It's a brave step in the right direction, and much bolder than I had expected.

Obliterators: From one end of the scale to the other. This new version isn't worth 85 points, and probably not even worth 75. I do think these stats are a better representation of obliterators though, they just need fine tuning points wise.

As regards the Harbinger - Kudos for including it. We have the model, so we really should use it! At least let's give people the chance to try it out for a while, and see if it works. If it proves unworkable it can be moved to the appendix, but I applaud you for at least giving it a go.

Oh, and I'm over the moon to see the faction hatred nonsense going out the window. Woo!

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

One interesting point to note; there's no longer any point at all in making a formation undivided. Now that the hatred has gone they can't even be used as "buffer" formations.

Maybe make daemonic beasts undivided only?

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

It isn't that it made the game more difficult (my comments are simply about having to refer to it all the time when my opponent would say "I thought it was 2+") but that it almost never had any impact.

If you like the effect of the rule simply use it as a guideline to build your forces and you have the same net effect.

Still think that Raptors and Terminators should have the unit cost structure to be changed to X + extra units style so that lords cost is included properly.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

I have reservations about a number of issues

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If an aircraft jinks then all the formation has to jink.You cannot jink 1 fighter then continue to attack with the others.
Excert from the rulebook.
4.2.3 Anti-aircraft Attacks
Fighters and fighter-bombers can choose to ‘jink’ when
they have to make a saving throw. Jinking represents the
pilot desperately swerving his plane to one side in order
to try and dodge the enemy attack. All of the aircraft in a
formation must jink, or none at all. Aircraft that jink
receive a 4+ saving throw instead of their normal armour
save but lose their attack if they have not already taken it
(they are concentrating on dodging enemy bullets).

Curses Nero, foiled again. In that case I'd just like them to be as cheap as possible! Any chance of stats matching 150 (or less) for 3?

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"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

I'm with TRC on this,it would be nice to get the fighters down to 150 points,but how?

A quick list of ideas to throw around
Dropping the AA attack to 6+.
Or.
Making the Reaper twin linked so as to cut to 1 attack instead of 2.
Or.
Count the 3rd fighter as a wingman who cannot attack but can take the 1st incoming hit (jink allowed and others to still be able to fire,your idea got me thinking TRC ).

Extra daemon prince?   *runs*

Anyhow, I think limiting beasts is a bad idea. Khornate daemonic beasts are included in the plastic infantry box and slaaneshi/nurglite ones are around in metal, for those lucky enough to own some. Whereas models for undivided ones don't exist.