5) If you have an Icon bearer in a formation, is retaining daemons mandatory, or can you opt to send some back to the pool? This is not entirely clear, so we presumed not.

Again from the BL pdf.(relevent point highlighted)

BL 1.1.5 Daemonic Focus
Certain Chaos units are noted as having Daemonic
Focus. Units with this ability may keep any or all
summoned units that belong to the formation in
play. Summoned units do not vanish back into the
warp after the formation has attempted to rally.
Chaos units with Daemonic Focus may not be used
to keep summoned units in play if the formation is
broken.

Reading this thread, I know how Dobbsy felt about the Tau!

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They are free, yes, but not entirely free; for they have a master, and that master is Law.

Not even close to true. I complained they were too cheap not one page ago.

Dozens of others agree.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

You also have to take into account that the GD has a greater assault range (30cm),Reinforced Armour (less kills) and is Inspiring.
On a downside it is fearless so cannot be used to take hackdown kills in a lost assault .

Oops, my bad - I have got "Fearless" on the brain

Regarding the comparisons you will note that I am not complaining about the "Free" character, rather comparing the costings of the various formations and suggesting (along with others) that they seem a little low compared with the equivalent marines.

On the question of the "included" character, personally I have always had misgivings about 'Fearless' commisars (though they do provide some much needed backbone and colour to the IG). On balance, IMO they are a necessary nuisance. I tend to discount the Eldar Avatar both because it is temporary and a single figure rather than many - so only has a limited and local effect on the battle, and this is further offset by the nature of the critical. Also you have to buy their SC. Likewise the "free" Ork warlord provides a single extra attack and the much needed re-roll to help offset the poorer tactical rating of the formations.

By comparison, this extra character is automatically included in most BL formations providing an extra MW attack to boost each local assault and Leader to remove BMs. Furthermore the BL also get a free SC Reroll to help activations despite having initiative 1+ (because the 'Hated faction' rule never impacts). The result is that the BL almost never fail their activation rolls, and so can guarantee with near chess-like precision how to bring their superior fire-power to bear first (due to the strategy rating of 4+). (Is that succinct enough? )

Given PG's comment that the list was designed to include these characters (with the attendant hike in the power of the army as a whole), perhaps we could consider some combination of

• Curbing their abilities in some way (perhaps drop 'Leader'?)
• Making the SC upgrade optional at a cost of 50 points (like the Marine SC)
• Increasing the cost of the relevant formations by 25 points or ~10% as suggested above (which incidently is in line with the proposed change to the Raptors)
• Consider mandating that the player must pay for and add a minimum number of these Characters to formations of his choice ( using a ratio relative to the number of formations)
• Consider some other restriction on the number of these formations that can be fielded (so reducing the overall effect)
• etc

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Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

IG also has large, cheap formations and plenty of firepower. They don´t need assaults to win, in my experience it is a significiant defensive boost to them, especially in the intermingling situation I described. Besides, "add 1 IG Commissar to any stand in the formation at +25 points" would be be much more transparant and fair, if one were to apply the same standards used here.

Biel-Tan neither needs Guardians nor uses them in assaults (I sure tried!).

As I said, Orks get +2 on the actions they´d do anyway, the clever ork Commander reserves the reroll for rallying formations, he won´t need it before.

In any case, why not apply pricing "free" across the board, for consistency and such?

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I don´t want to split hairs here and get into semantics, but there is a difference between "first time" and "first one".

Also, there may be about a dozen people posting in this thread, but there are hardly "dozens" agreeing with you.

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(Ginger @ 04 Sep. 2008, 15:23 )Regarding the comparisons you will note that I am not complaining about the "Free" character, rather comparing the costings of the various formations and suggesting (along with others) that they seem a little low compared with the equivalent marines.

On the question of the "included" character, personally I have always had misgivings about 'Fearless' commisars (though they do provide some much needed backbone and colour to the IG). On balance, IMO they are a necessary nuisance. I tend to discount the Eldar Avatar both because it is temporary and a single figure rather than many - so only has a limited and local effect on the battle, and this is further offset by the nature of the critical. Also you have to buy their SC. Likewise the "free" Ork warlord provides a single extra attack and the much needed re-roll to help offset the poorer tactical rating of the formations.

By comparison, this extra character is automatically included in most BL formations providing an extra MW attack to boost each local assault and Leader to remove BMs. Furthermore the BL also get a free SC Reroll to help activations despite having initiative 1+ (because the 'Hated faction' rule never impacts). The result is that the BL almost never fail their activation rolls, and so can guarantee with near chess-like precision how to bring their superior fire-power to bear first (due to the strategy rating of 4+). (Is that succinct enough? )

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There have been occasional complaints but they have been few and minor.  Possibly, you could argue that the Retinue issue is minor in relation to other issues and that's the reason for a lack of complaints, but there have still been relatively few overall.  That's the source of resistance here.

As another consideration, from a general perspective, the proposed changes so far have been adding 50-100 points to most tourney BL lists.  That's about 3% on average.  Something like adding 25 points to Retinues is going to add another 50 points to most lists which takes the average boost to the neighborhood of 4-5%.  You're getting into some serious numbers at that point.  Personally, I'm not sure that 100-150 points is warranted based on the tourney results and batreps people have posted.

So, give us some details to work with.  You said you've played with the Corsairs list that uses the same formation.  Why is the Retinue too cheap?  How does that advantage play out in games?  What have your experiences been?  What kind of list could take advantage of the theoretical point differential in the Retinue?  Have you seen such a list in play?

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Neal

I really don't think the BL has any more problems with BM management than any other army. Only guard get to add leader to vehicle formations and as its a random number per game its not guaranteed. 1+ init also helps with BM management.

Having a leader in all the core troop formations is also a nice luxury most other armies don't have.

I like that idea

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Yes. If you build up an uber Warlord unit you'll lose all the upgrades you put on it

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Correct. The daemons aren't retained if the formation breaks even if there is an IB.

Good FAQ question.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.