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Black Legion rules review

 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:51 am 
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That large Chosen formation would also limit you to ~six activations for most of the game, and, since you will be out-activated, guarantee that your opponent will manage to contest the T&H and Blitz objectives, and generally run rings around you.

It´s not a winner.

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:39 pm 
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Quote: (Irondeath @ 02 Sep. 2008, 11:39 )

In my experience, after half a dozen or more games opponents have wised up to common BL strategies (like the Chosen assault hammer you suggested) and can deal with them successfully. Over the years, I have played dozens of games in tournaments, scenarios, campaigns and straight X000-GT rules one-off games, and the established opinion is that, in its current form, the list is indeed balanced and priced correctly, barring abuses like the Feral horde and the other minor tweaks suggested by LI.

The experience at uk tournies is they have by far the best record, and no one has used WE hordes or similar yet.

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:53 pm 
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Quote: (Irondeath @ 02 Sep. 2008, 11:51 )

That large Chosen formation would also limit you to ~six activations for most of the game, and, since you will be out-activated, guarantee that your opponent will manage to contest the T&H and Blitz objectives, and generally run rings around you.

It´s not a winner.

Really? I would have thought 3 Ferals, then a mix of retuines, forlorn hopes, raptors and and maybe bikes would be tough enough to last and cause trouble. Thats 8-9 formations including the chosen. Yes out activated, but only until the theoretically uber units start killing enemy activations.

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:32 pm 
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TRC, you are having it both ways! Either 3 Ferals, a common sight in those UK tourneys IIRC, are WE horde and abusive, or they aren´t a problem.

In any case, less than 2000 points of whatever current BL should be smashed by 3000 points of any other army, if that weren´t the case, indeed we´d have a problem.

Ginger suggested

Chosen formation (6), with Icon bearer, Chaos Champion, Daemon Prince and Pact: 565

two of these run @1130 points, add 2 GDs and a couple of LDs and we are getting close to 1500 points.

3 Ferals, another 900, leaving some 600 points to get more activations. Maybe a Retinue, a Forlorn Hope and Bikers if you cut some daemons and don´t upgrade those formations.

The problem remains that close to half your army is tied in two slow, foot slogging formations whose main capability is assault. I have played such lists, and drop variants thereof, and can honestly say I would not field them in a tourney because the element of chance, in winning strategy, summoning a GD, winning that assault is just too large.

Another thing: Teleporting two formations means you´ll have to activate them both and can´t spare an activation for prep fire, which is often critical with teleporter assaults as the attackers invarably have BMs on them.

Now, the large Chosen formation:

8 Chosen, DP, IB, Pact, Champ or +3 Oblits:

for 695 (Champ) or 870 points (Oblits), plus 2-300 points of daemons:

2000-odd points left to hold the line, should let you keep your BTS, will not clear Blitz and T&H except under very favourable circumstances, wouldn´t a 4-strong formation with Pact achieve much the same on the objectives front while costing less than half? Or two fo them?

I fail to see how it could be game breaking, which would be your point?

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:53 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 02 Sep. 2008, 01:50 )

Simple maths - with 3+RA the DP will always have a better chance of survival than a Chosen with 4+RA.

That isn't what you said though. You said

Furthermore, even if they do get to go first, with a Daemon Prince in the mix, there is a better than even chance the formation will survive the barrage anyway!


The formation doesn't benefit from the DP's armour and even if the DP survives the formation may be broken and if so the GD is gone.

However, you may gather that I am not convinced they are particularly effective ways...

That may be but I think that you still fail to see what I am saying. people have flooded you with suggestions about how to deal with the formation which indicates to me that it isn't a problem. You may disagree with the suggestions but if people can almost instantly come up with ideas on how to deal with it then it can't really be that much of a problem can it?

...the whole point of having 4+RA with TRA is to make the Chosen survivable.

Maybe you need to reiterate your point then as I thought the idea was that this formation was a problem because of the Chosen AND its ability to summon a GD.

Further to that, could you perhaps post these in their own topic from now on so we don't weight the CSM rules review down with discussion of your problem formations?

the only real option is to avoid it - thus giving the opponent your Blitz, and either dividing your forces or putting them in between 'a rock and a hard place', neither particularly helpfull strategies.

Well you think that this is the only option. That doesn't make it so.




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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:58 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 02 Sep. 2008, 02:07 )

Guys, the point I am trying to put across in these examples is not that this or that unit is grossly overpowered in itself, because by-and-large they are not. My contention has always been that :-
1) Many 'regular' units and formations in the list are slightly too powerfull or underpriced relative to other races.
2) The ability to upgrade or 'summon' Daemonic units (which IMO are also overpowered/undervalued) to these formations and the inherent 1+ strategy rating provide force multipliers which increase these imbalances to the point where IMHO the list is too powerfull.

This is all just vague commentary without any facts though. And it really does seem to be contrary to a lot of people's opinions and game experience. The comment about the daemons is particularly outside of what people are reporting

And you have had a series of people disagree with your last example and provide a pretty large amount of contradictory commentary and examples.

So you need to get some hard facts and narrow your commentary down to something a bit more easy to test than "Many 'regular' units and formations in the list are slightly too powerfull or underpriced relative to other races."




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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:33 pm 
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Quote: (Irondeath @ 02 Sep. 2008, 13:32 )

TRC, you are having it both ways! Either 3 Ferals, a common sight in those UK tourneys IIRC, are WE horde and abusive, or they aren´t a problem.

I've seen/heard of only one army with 3 ferals (and that I think didn't win).

8 Chosen, DP, IB, Pact, Champ or +3 Oblits:


I thought we were assuming no more chosen for oblits?

I fail to see how it could be game breaking, which would be your point?

Actually I'm not sure what the point would be, but hopefully Ginger will show me tonight!

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:40 pm 
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So, I propose a Chosen formation (6), with Icon bearer, Chaos Champion, Daemon Prince and Pact:- 565 the lot, which seems remarkably cheap (even if it is the BTS). Given half a chance this will generate a permanent GD and become a minimum of a 9 strong formation. With even moderate luck this should take be able to out any enemy WE and be very difficult to destroy to boot (and you would obviously take measures to keep the Icon bearer in the middle of the formation).


In addition to all the previous comment...

This is actually a 640 point formation, as the Greater Daemon is pretty much a one-formation-only phenomenon.  Plus, I think you could argue that 7-8 LDs is also required as a contingency plan, so the effective cost is even higher.  That means the formation should be comparable to a Reaver or Gargant.  As it is, it's more fragile than either of those so it should be REALLY nasty.

In addition to the "going first" calculations, you need to add in the potential failure to summon the GD.  That adds ~20% chance to any army having a chance to deal with it before it's on the board.  It still gets a handful of LDs, but it's not the powerhouse it would have been otherwise.

I'd also add that Disrupt weapons would do some damage.  Most of the formation is not Fearless and even with lesser daemons as meat shields it will rack up BMs pretty quickly compared to its total unit count.

In a similar vein, crossfiring a deep strike formation with a move of 15cm is pretty easy.  It might not work on the Chosen with TRA but it will definitely help strip daemons, including the GD.  The Daemon Prince doesn't have TRA, either, so that cuts his chance of saving in about half (~1/9 failure to ~1/4).

The Greater Daemon adds vulnerability to AT fire which wasn't present in the formation previously.  As a ballpark, I'd say that adds probably 20% more firepower targeting the formation.

I think it is a really wickedly nasty surprise but I'm not convinced it's disproportionate to its point cost.

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:50 pm 
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I've seen/heard of only one army with 3 ferals (and that I think didn't win).


Must be the one I remember. Without MW, I regard the Feral as fixed.


I thought we were assuming no more chosen for oblits?

We should be. This thread is such a mess, 23 pages and all...  :;):


Actually I'm not sure what the point would be, but hopefully Ginger will show me tonight!

Good Luck, and I´m looking forward to the results!
:agree:

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:34 pm 
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Quote: (Irondeath @ 02 Sep. 2008, 14:50 )

We should be. This thread is such a mess, 23 pages and all...  :;):

I know I keep promising this, but a concise list of playtest changes will be coming soon!


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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:18 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 02 Sep. 2008, 10:40 )

I'd also add that Disrupt weapons would do some damage.

Disrupt weapons can ruin your day with Daemons. Its not difficult for Barrage Disrupt weapons (or any Disrupt weapons) to break a formation and strip the daemons from it.

I know I try to avoid Void Spinners etc when playing Eldar when I start popping Daemons.

Neal is also right that you want some LDs to soak up hits and protect the GD.

I've not played a GD on its own and my standard practice is to pop out LDs on turn one and then try to get the GD on turn two and then assault.

Its not that difficult to break a formation prior to summoning. Don't forget that in order to get good chances to summon a GD you have to use three of your four upgrades leaving you not a hell of a lot of options to beef up the size of the formation to keep it from breaking before you get the GD out.

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:15 pm 
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Quote: (pixelgeek @ 02 Sep. 2008, 16:58 )

So you need to get some hard facts and narrow your commentary down to something a bit more easy to test than "Many 'regular' units and formations in the list are slightly too powerfull or underpriced relative to other races."

With respect PG, that's exactly the situation. It's almost impossible to narrow down individual issues with the list, because just about everything in the list is overpowered or underpriced to a slight extent.

For some reason you keep ignoring people who say this, even though they are in the majority, and you keep trotting out the same old lines.

Could it be that you have an unhealthy attachment to the list as it is, due to your heavy involvement in its development?

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:22 pm 
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Disrupt weapons can ruin your day with Daemons. Its not difficult for Barrage Disrupt weapons (or any Disrupt weapons) to break a formation and strip the daemons from it.


How?

The Disrupt Special Rule can't be used when the Daemons pass their saves.

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:59 am 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 03 Sep. 2008, 00:15 )

It's almost impossible to narrow down individual issues with the list, because just about everything in the list is overpowered or underpriced to a slight extent.

Name them, for yours is a rather broad statement.
Name the units still overpowered/underpriced in the current revision.

I´d like to argue game balance issues here, not muse on people´s agendas, yours or pixelgeeks. You could at least swing the theoryhammer, claiming that "just about everything is overpowered or underpriced" says little more than "I have a general dislike of the list".

Be specific, what units are still wrong in your opinion and how would you remedy this?

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 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:25 am 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 02 Sep. 2008, 15:15 )

With respect PG, that's exactly the situation. It's almost impossible to narrow down individual issues with the list, because just about everything in the list is overpowered or underpriced to a slight extent.

If you can't isolate a problem you can't fix it and if you can't isolate it then I would suggest that it isn't a problem

Could it be that you have an unhealthy attachment to the list as it is, due to your heavy involvement in its development?


Could be. It could also be that I am not inclined to listen to generalizations and people bemoaning how broken the list is when it clearly isn't.

I would counter that if I am less inclined to listen to issues it is because there are any number of people that appear to have an axe to grind regarding this list. People who get ignored by me because they have "cried wolf" far too often and with far too hyperbolic, with general and baseless comments.

There are quite a few people that I do listen to. Some without reservation and some who are my bellweather on issues. These people are routinely the ones that back up their arguments, aren't hyperbolic and aren't driving an agenda other than trying to make the game better.

There are quite a few people I would spend more time listening to but they can't stop being theatrical and don't spend enough time backing up their opinions

Opinions are a dime a dozen.




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