Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 180 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12  Next

[Old!] Tyranids v9.0

 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:34 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:38 am
Posts: 303
Location: Utah, Texas, or some Pacific Island
Ok Here are some off the wall fixes to the v9.0 list to mess around with.

Special Rules

Relentless Change the +2 for Engage and Rally to +1

[Basically at +2 the modifier ends up being just too good. In an effort to keep things simple, the new aim of the list, apply just the above to see how it works. It should slow the Nid army down as Broken formations will find it harder to rally, and a bit tougher to engage.]

Spawning Drop entirely the -3 for Broken Swarms Spawning and replace it with the following "Broken Swarms halve the number of base Spawning Points they receive, rounded down. If a Swarm has enemy within 30cm AND the Swarm is Broken it cannot spawn that turn.

[This should not only give the Nid player a big incentive to pull broken swarms out of the line, but it should also reward opponents for following up a successful attack. In effect this should make it possible for opponents to hammer those Broken Swarms by keeping formations within 30cms of those same swarms.

Units

Hive Tyrant Spawning (+1) (Please note that on this units Data sheet under notes it already DOES NOT have an Invulnerable Save)

[There is nothing wrong with the Hive Tyrant itself, rather it is what an opponent has to go through to get at them AND the number of units the Tyrant can get in front of itself. The changes coming up below should change this to some extent, but not exactly in the way most will want.]

Exocrine Change the Bio-Cannon to 2xAP4+/AT5+
[I can see that the old stat may just be a bit much]

Hierodule Change the unit to DC-3 (Players should keep in mind that the Hierodule while a spidery WE it has never been fearless, and still isn't)

[The DCs were changed so we could drop the entire regen rules, I expected their DCs would need adjustments.]

Trygon Remove Fearless from the notes line.

[I was uncomfortable with this unit being fearless, and after a few games using it (Flash Tests) I felt it needed to be dropped.

Malefactor Change the small arms stat line to +1 FF attacks

[It was also used in Flash Tests with the +1, reducing the unit to two FF attacks instead of three FF attacks. I might increase the units FF attack to 4+ rather then bring it back up to +2 FF attacks]

Army List

Independents

0-2 Bio-Titans either 1xHierophant for 275pts OR 1xHydraphant for 375pts

[This should prevent players from being able to max out on more WEs then they should really be able to do for the list]

Uncommon Brood Groups You may purchase one Uncommon Brood Group for each TWO Common Brood Groups in the Army

[I was tempted to change this to one for three but I restrained myself as I haven't tested it at this rate with the above changes.]

Overview

Now I know these changes are not going to make everybody happy, and I know I haven't done anything with the per unit point values (let's get this working first or the point value changes will be meaningless.), but they should tighten things up.

Nid Swarms now will not get an almost guranteed rally, and will have a harder time rallying within 30cms of an enemy, on top of that they will not be able to spawn at all if they are broken and within 30cms of the enemy. This should make it possible for opponents to savage Broken Nid formations they can catch.

I don't feel there is anything wrong with the Spawning rules as they stand right now. They are far and away much easier to carry out then rolling dice for each and every Nid formation. If one rolled for each Nid formation in the end phase they would still have to apply any and all modifiers presently being used so no math procedures are saved by rolling for each Swarm. Rolling once removing multiple steps (Rolls) from the Spawning procedure speeding up the entire process.

Now the spawning values may need adjustment, and they will be reviewed soon, but for now I am going to leave them alone until I have finished testing the above. I encourage players to continue to chime in on them with their thoughts, and to do some experimenting with those values on their own.

Thanks All................

Jaldon  :p




_________________
I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:12 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
Hi Jaldon, some "off the wall" reactions:-

- Relentless:- I agree with reducing the Rally to +1, but would suggest considering keeping the 'auto-engage' at +2

- Hierodules to DC3 :- yes (I would also drop many / most of the other big bugs by DC1)

- 0-2 Biotitans - less sure here. Could you achieve the same effect by increasing the points values, eg 475 / 375. The reasoning being that the list should be scalable rather than restrictive.

- 1:2 common : uncommon ratio is actually what I have been playing already because I was finding I could not easily re-spawn uncommon critters. Here again I would suggest modest price increases might be more appropriate rather than changing the ratios, as I suspect this will prevent people fielding much of their uncommon stuff. Equally I am sure that there are other means to restrict the excessive use of uncommon bugs and get people to use common bugs more.

========

Some further thoughts to try out:-
- Fearless RA DCx Synapses are very powerfull - perhaps consider keeping Fearless on the Hive Tyrant and Tyranid Warrior, but dropping Fearless from the others

- Reword the constraint on spawning to be to the effect that Spawning is halved if any enemy is within 30cms of the synapse creatures in the swarm

Hope that helps




_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:20 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
Quote: (jaldon454 @ 31 Jul. 2008, 00:34 )

Independents

0-2 Bio-Titans either 1xHierophant for 275pts OR 1xHydraphant for 375pts

[This should prevent players from being able to max out on more WEs then they should really be able to do for the list]

Hard caps are very unsatisfactory. If there is a problem with a unit it makes them shift where it occurs. If your fix is for 3000 point game you could be underpowered potentially at 4000-5000 and still overpowered at 2000. One way is the points cap, 1 per 1000 or whatever points. For this list a relative cap is better, I would say 1 per 3 synapse groups. Part of the potential devestation comes from fielding a fearless WE legion, this would radically change that. Yes you could get 3 WE still, but it would be contingent on 9 fairly un-WE synapse.

Currently to try the Nidzilla list again with a hard 0-2 cap I would go for

375 Hydraphant
275 Hierophant
200 Lictors
150 Lictors

450 Dominatrix
125 Synapse Node, arty formation, garrisoned off blitz in corner to corner game
125 Synapse Node, probably also an arty formation, garrisoned off blitz in corner to corner game
300 Vituperator

1025 of stuff

6 hard formations, 2 chaff for a possible objective grab/ambush. You can never have enough fearless WE.




_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:29 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
I am heinously against non-scaling 0-x limits ; Whilst they might provide balance at 3000pt sized games, they'll be unbalanced if you drift any more than 300pts either side of that limit... in all cases other than 'fluff' or absolutely overriding rules nessesity, non-scaling 0-x limits should be avoided at all costs.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:58 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
Other than the Dominatrix, and, I suppose the Lictors, I too am against "hard" limits on things... why not up the points on Bio-Titans instead?

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:05 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:38 am
Posts: 303
Location: Utah, Texas, or some Pacific Island
I am heinously against non-scaling 0-x limits


Is this the part where I say thank you for the input and then do what I want 'cause I am the Army Champion :tongue:

Just kidding, thanks for the input, and I see the points made.

How about 0-1 Bio-Titan Formation per 1,500 points, rounded up?


375 Hydraphant
275 Hierophant
200 Lictors
150 Lictors

450 Dominatrix
125 Synapse Node, arty formation, garrisoned off blitz in corner to corner game
125 Synapse Node, probably also an arty formation, garrisoned off blitz in corner to corner game
300 Vituperator


Not trying to be mean TRC but an unarmed, immobile, Synapse Node may be a WE but it is hardly a threat. This pairs the Nidzilla list down to four WEs.

Relentless:- I agree with reducing the Rally to +1, but would suggest considering keeping the 'auto-engage' at +2

Suggestion noted, but I would like to try it at +1 for now to see what effect it has in the long run. If the effect is bad we can always push it back up to +2

Hierodules to DC3 :- yes (I would also drop many / most of the other big bugs by DC1)

For now let's just try what we got, ok.

1:2 common : uncommon ratio is actually what I have been playing already because I was finding I could not easily re-spawn uncommon critters. Here again I would suggest modest price increases might be more appropriate rather than changing the ratios, as I suspect this will prevent people fielding much of their uncommon stuff. Equally I am sure that there are other means to restrict the excessive use of uncommon bugs and get people to use common bugs more.

The change to spawning in broken formations, IE cannot spawn at all if enemy within 30cms, and the reduction to only a +1 for Rallies may change  a lot of what happens with the commons and uncommons spawning back. In the weekend games using the +2 for rally the Nids were unable (In two games where the armies were common heavy) to spawn back all their losses. The new rules for broken/spawn/rally may just tip the scales enough to prevent raising points. I want the Nid army to be more heavy in common creatures then uncommons.

Fearless RA DCx Synapses are very powerfull - perhaps consider keeping Fearless on the Hive Tyrant and Tyranid Warrior, but dropping Fearless from the others

So the Dominatrix, Vituperator, and Harridan lose fearless? I do not think this would really pass muster. I would rather up points here, or further restrict them, a possibility I have been toying with would be to restrict Synapse to 1/4 of the total points in the army.

Thanks All...............

Jaldon :p

_________________
I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:17 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
Quote: (jaldon454 @ 31 Jul. 2008, 03:05 )

Not trying to be mean TRC but an unarmed, immobile, Synapse Node may be a WE but it is hardly a threat. This pairs the Nidzilla list down to four WEs.

You are right, its either a forward artillery post or a rally point. Still hopefully i get to have revenge on Gavin at some point with it. And 4 WEs from 5 (note one got bigger) - is it enough...

How about 0-1 Bio-Titan Formation per 1,500 points, rounded up?


Still prefer 1 per 3 Synapse :) Also you still get to overwhelm people at 2000 points with two Titans if its 1 per 1500 or part.




_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:14 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:38 am
Posts: 303
Location: Utah, Texas, or some Pacific Island
You are right, its either a forward artillery post or a rally point. Still hopefully i get to have revenge on Gavin at some point with it. And 4 WEs from 5 (note one got bigger) - is it enough...


How about eight WEs with a total of 44xDC :devil: Hope you got the models as it would take three collections from around here to put it together :_(

Independents
x2 Hierophants=550pts
x6 lictors=300pts
x6 Genestealers=150pts
Total=1,000pts

Synapse
x1 Dominatrix=450pts
x1 Vituperator=300pts
x2 Synapse Nodes=250pts
Total=1,000pts

Uncommom
x8 Biovores=300pts
x2 Hierodule=250pts
x2 Exocrine=150pts
x2 Trygon=200pts

Common
x8 Gargoyles=200pts
x20 Hormogants=250pts
x16 Termagants=300pts
x8 Raveners=250pts
Total=1,000pts

While this army IS big in numbers with a total of 44xDC and 66xCommon/Uncommons it has a paltry Base Spawning of 9pts, with a maximum total of x15 available IF the Nid player gets six. In most games it averages out to be four per turn (We have kept track in a number of games) so it is a paltry x13. Worse four of the base Spawning Points are tied up in immobile Synapse Nodes reducing the front line spawning down to five maximum base points with a maximum of eleven points, and an average of nine points.

More likely the TWO available Swarms will only get half that as they are most likely going to end up being within 15cms of an enemy each turn, this reduces it even further to a maximum of eight points, and an average of seven.

The Dominatrix is going to be real busy trying to run this Army, win before attrition kills ya cause you are not going to be able to make up for the losses you suffer.

Still prefer 1 per 3 Synapse. Also you still get to overwhelm people at 2000 points with two Titans

This is a workable option, I am going to note it down and we will use it this weekend along with the other changes given above. I have a Nid game to play this weekend of 3,000pts.

Thanks

Jaldon :p

_________________
I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:01 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
Well Jaldon, I actually have at least that number of models with some to spare! (except for the Vituperaptor and synapses which need scratch building  :smile: )

Regarding Fearless Synapses, yes I was suggesting dropping it from the Dominatrix, Vituperaptor and possibly Harridan for two reasons:-
  • It would mean these units would need a little more protection during an assault (so would encourage greater swarm numbers that we both desire).
  • The high DC values of these beasts give them sufficient protection, but this gives a slight weakness that can be exploited as TRC did in our game.

If dropped from the Hive Tyrant as well (but kept on the Tyranid Warriors), this would also be a subtle way of encouraging more commons.

Regarding the common:uncommon ratio, one of the main problems here is the high premium on plastic sprues. Some have been lucky or rich enough to buy sufficient quantities, but to provide the numbers of Termagaunts / Hormagaunts on your list above requires some 20 sprues which aint cheap! Is there any other way to make a 'common heavy' list more effective than one that features uncommons or WE - for example, making all commons 1 point?




_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:22 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:38 am
Posts: 303
Location: Utah, Texas, or some Pacific Island
Hena: This is interesting. Though I think that it possibly can be abused by massive amount of Tyrants running alone.


I disagree. 4+RA is the problem, not the units in front of it. The thing just shrugs damage of with that save. I would just jave 3+ and Inv. Note that I did believe it has Inv with 4+RA.

Massive being x10 per 1,000 points in formations of two units, so five formations per 1,000? Ever play against an opponent that fields tons of Terminators?

I have and it wasn't that hard to duff up the Terminators. Low unit volume combined with 4+ RA isn't a game breaker.

However I will Flash Test the possibility and see what comes up, if it is torrid then I will address it.

Exocrine? Shouldn't it also mean for Hierophants and Dominatrix? My most problematic unit with this weapon is Hierophant.

To accomplish this without effecting the other units mounting the weapon only requires a name change to the Exocrines weapon name. For now we can forgo the name change to test this idea.

Trygon is easier to kill. It has 3+ save and no RA. And it has 2DC. I would certainly keep fearless on it.

Over the weekend a player fielded a mass formation of just Trygons/Hive Tyrants, then I Flash tested the concept further, it was nigh unstoppable. I am hesitant to start putting anymore limits on units then I am already suggesting.

+1 EA and FF4+ is my suggestion.

I am leaning heavily toward doing this also as it is a better trade off then keeping it at 5+ x3 FF shots. Consider it noted down for this weekends games as the official change idea.

All in all I would just up the cost by 25 or 50 points instead of making a 0 - X limit which is bad, bad baaaad . In this case it would merely paper over the problem of them being too cheap (which is what usually happens).

Problem is I don't think they are too cheap and I am not going to beef up their stat line to make them worth their points, then the reverse will happen players will complain (Rightly) that they are not worth getting without the better weapon stats. Then we start to slid into making the Nids what they were before, too well armed.

TRCs painless limit based on Synapse is a far better choice IMHO as it limits them based on Synapse volume, and can be rationalized along those lines, without a hard limit that would effect larger point battles. I like it soooooo much (TRCs idea) that I am trying to wedge it into the Lictor limit.

Regarding the common:uncommon ratio, one of the main problems here is the high premium on plastic sprues. Some have been lucky or rich enough to buy sufficient quantities, but to provide the numbers of Termagaunts / Hormagaunts on your list above requires some 20 sprues which aint cheap! Is there any other way to make a 'common heavy' list more effective than one that features uncommons or WE - for example, making all commons 1 point?

One newbie in our group was getting into Epic-A and wanted to play Orks and he loved the Big Warbands, but alas being a student costs were an issue :_( . Three Big Warbands (His target for his army) needed x60 stands (Or x300 of the little buggers) stands alone forgetting the other stuff needed. But page 10, 4th paragraph was pointed out to him (1.1.2 Stands) and in a couple of months 'his' army was fighting on tables. That rule stats that you can mount infantry x3 to a stand reducing the needed figs to a more manageable x180 figs. In the above list the needed x52 stands would only require 156 figs.

Just as an aside, he then became sullen because he then needed to buy the stands to mount the figs as he didn't like the look of the mini's stand sticking above the surface of a piece of card. It was then pointed out to him that a paper hole punch makes a hole the same size as on the Epic-Mini stands, so take some ceral boxes, cut them into stands, punch holes in half of them and glue them together, viola Epic-A stands :agree:

More importantly notice the list given here by me is set to the minimum limit for commons, 1,000 points, and the lowest limit on formations that a player must field. The absolute minimum would be x32 Ravener Stands, or x160 Figs (x96 if you mount them three to a stand).

Last, there is no figure for the Ravener, so you have to proxy them, and I bought a bag of x100 plastic Ants at the local Dollar Tree Store for a dollar and mounted them three to a stand. So the only figs a players needs to collect to fill out the commons would be Termies and Hormies. Mount them three to a stand and they will go much further.

Between the proxies needed for Ravs, and the three to a stand rule it shouldn't be too hard to collect the needed numbers in a tighter budget.

(As an aside I am far from well off driving an '85 GMC pickup, the wife an '87 Cavalier, and minis are not even in the family budget. So I can relate. Side jobs, and selling off some of my older stuff is how I get the minis, though I admit I snuck the bag of x100 Ants into the family budget :oo: )

Thanks all

Jaldon :p

_________________
I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:39 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
Quote: (Hena @ 31 Jul. 2008, 17:35 )

The basic idea of the list as set down by Jervis was "Endless horde of tooth and claw". For this the large amount of infantry bugs (common brood) is needed. This is one of the main reasons why 1/1 doesn't work.

It could work if the Uncommon Brood clutches were smaller, or the Common clutches bigger.

And the "big guys" have teeth and claws too...   :laugh:

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 180 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net