Okay, the summoning rules for the Black Legion often come up as a subject of contention. This is a thread for brainstorming ideas of how to improve or streamline the summoning system.

Please bear in mind that chances are the most minimal changes are likely to be the best ones and no promises are being made about any changes at all, but feel free to reinvent the wheel if you want.

Lastly, let's keep this as a positive thread, let's look for new ideas rather than picking holes in the existing system. At this stage it is entirely hypothetical, I just thought I'd throw it out there.

There's a thread somewhere, either here or on SG, where we came up with several options.  I did a quick search but couldn't find it.  Someone else may have better luck.

I cranked through a ton of numbers related to replacing the current system with something more like the old sacrifice system, yet still come up with about the same cost/daemon in most situations and strategies.

_________________
Neal

This one?

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 82;t=11819

The site limits topics displayed to a month or so and this was older than that

_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

In general I think that the current system is way too fiddly and predictable. It also makes getting a GD into play almost impossible.

Its just not a lot of fun. The old Sacrifice system was way more fun and I think that if we went back to it with the addition that you couldn't maintain the daemons that we might have a more interesting system

_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

I don't mind the current system other than 8 being too much for a Greater Daemon, though that's under review I thought.

_________________
Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

I'm for sacrificing (= removing) a unit with a Character attached to it to replace it with a Greater Daemon.
Off course the Greater Daemon will stay on the board until destroyed or until he looses an assault (because then he will suffer from daemonic instability and vanish back into the warp)

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

It's worth mentioning that Daemonic Instability no longer exists in the 40k mechanics.

Don't get me wrong, I liked that system a lot better than the current Chaos Daemons rules, but Instability is gone.

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"

I think we'd need to retain it to avoid the "ever growing meat shield" problem that the first set of summoning rules had.

I liked them but retaining daemons from turn to turn had some serious problems.

_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Hum, right. Now as you mention it.
But as i see it Epic follows the more detailed version of the Wh40k Codices. Or it is whishful thinking of me

But then i would only grant Greater Daemons Fearless. I don't see the Lesser Daemons as so disciplined that they will be immune to hackdown hits.

So to summaries my thoughts about Summoning in Epic Wh40k style:

Replace a unit with a Character as casualty (but this generates no BM) and replace the unit with a Greater Daemon of the same faction.
Greater Daemons remains in play until destroyed.

For lesser Daemons: Buy Lesser Daemons as upgrades for formations (eg 3 Lesser Daemons per upgrade. Or more?). Icon Bearers* will be the visual marker to see which formations have Lesser Daemons waiting in the warp.
At the start of the formations activation place any number of (or better: all?) Lesser Daemons you have purchased for this formation in the same manner as in the current summoning rules.
The Lesser Daemons are now part of the formation and remain in play until destroyed.

So what do you think?

*Plus the Icon Bearer could grant Inspiring ( for Khorne and Slaanesh) to the formation or Invulnerable Save (for Tzeentch and Nurgle)to all units in the formation so long as the Icon Bearer remains in play.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

I've never been a fan of this.

Greater Daemons remains in play until destroyed.

_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Im not a heavy user of demons but when I have been I haven't found them to be unbalanced at all. In my opinion this makes changes cosmetic/stylistic, and then we have trouble with the fact that not everyone can agree with how demons should be represented at this scale.

_________________
They are free, yes, but not entirely free; for they have a master, and that master is Law.

I agree with PG that the current system is fiddly and, to a lesser extent, predictable.

Predictable I don't have a problem with.  Some variability is good but I don't want major portions of the battle to hinge on a couple lucky die rolls.  The predictability is by design.

Fiddly is really the issue.  I think it's one reason that there are only a couple uses of daemons seen in actual play.  Almost every list I've seen that uses summoning is restricted to Pact + LDs, unless someone just has a great desire to try a GD.  Occasionally, there is a Nurgle Icon bearer to help build a meat shield, but aside from that the characters are seldom used.

_________________
Neal

Personally I just stick with list stuff and don't bother with the demons, far more predicable that way. Is it intended that you should use Demons to be competitive?

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x