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London Experimental Day - Tau games

 Post subject: London Experimental Day - Tau games
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:22 pm 
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I took Tau along to the experimental list day at the London tournament and played two games with them – the first against Tom’s Guard and the second against Tim’s Black Legion.

Afraid I can’t remember all the details of each game, but some general comments will follow after a summary of the games.

My list was as follows:
Crisis suits with drones
Crisis suits with stealth suits
Mobile Hunter cadre with skyray
Scorpionfish upgraded to Supreme Commander
Stingrays with Skyray
Broadsides
Pathfinders with Devilfish
Piranhas
Markerlight turrets
Moray
Barracudas

The list was based on the models I have painted up, so it wasn’t super-honed. However, I don’t think it was uncompetitive either, and it included some of the controversial stuff such as Scorpionfish, Moray and Markerlight turrets (though I guess these things are more controversial when you use multiples of them).

Game 1: Tom had a Guard army made using his lovely Exodus Wars figures. It was quite a fluffy army and used several of the formations thought to be less competitive such as a company of Baneblades and stormtroopers in Valkyries.

I enjoyed the game, Tom is a fun opponent to play. We spent a leisurely Sunday morning drinking beer (great idea to have a tournament above a pub!) and playing Epic. What could be better?

I managed to win, sort of, but it was pretty close. We only played three turns, after which I was 1-0 up (BTS). I had destroyed a lot of Tom’s army though, so I think I would probably have gone on to claim a few more objectives and a proper win if we had played another turn.

But it was hard work and the IG did cause me a lot of problems, considering the Tau’s overpowered reputation, the fact that they should be particularly good against Guard and the fact that Tom had taken quite a fluffy list.

Game 2: Another enjoyable game. I think Tim would have beaten me quite easily in this game had he not had some very bad luck at a few key moments. Tim is a very good player and I constantly felt that I was just about hanging on, despite his bad luck. It ended up being a draw after turn 4, and I just edged it on victory points. It was 1-1 on objectives.

Some examples of Tim’s bad luck: he teleported in his Chosen next to my Hammerheads (the BTS) at the very start, but I won the initiative (despite having a strategy rating one lower) and sustained at the Chosen – Tim then rolled badly for his saves and most of his BTS was destroyed at the very beginning. Had this gone differently I’m pretty sure he would have won. In Turn 2, Tim won initiative and had something horrible lined up for me, but then failed his activation on a 2+ with a re-roll!

Anyway, both games were a lot of fun and I'll post some thoughts on the Tau below.


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 Post subject: London Experimental Day - Tau games
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:30 pm 
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Thoughts on the games and Tau list

I’ve had a real problem with armies that can air assault or teleport which, let’s face it, most armies can to some degree. It was only bad luck that stopped Tim’s teleporting Chosen deciding the game on Turn 1 I think, and I’ve been thrashed by Space Marines in the past. When I play with my Guard and I get air assaulted I know it’s going to hurt, but I also know that I’ve got plenty of formations that don’t mind getting up close to sort things out afterwards if they have to. The Tau don’t have anything that wants to stay close to the enemy (I guess there’s kroot, but I haven’t used them, so can’t really comment), so once the air assaulters are amongst you, it causes real problems as it disrupts your whole back line badly.

I've found it quite difficult to win games through goals with the Tau, especially by the third turn. They are good at shooting stuff, so can often get BTS, but the aggressive goals (Blitz and Take and Hold) can be difficult as the Tau like to hang back and don’t have much ability to force the enemy off objectives with assaults. The defensive goals can be better for the Tau, but I find these generally hard to achieve as they are often easy for the enemy to deny you. This can make things difficult for the Tau – unless they manage to just shoot everything on the table of course.

Both my Moray and my Scorpionfish got killed against Tom, and the Moray got killed again against Tim. They both have a 75cm range for their key weapons, which is obviously quite long, but it’s not so long that they can stay completely out of harm’s way if they want to be effective. Tom’s HQ (the BTS) redeployed so my Scorpionfish had to move forward a bit to bring its missiles to bear (it was still only about 20cm from my table edge, but out of cover). This exposed it to a doubling Baneblade Company late in the game, and it was taken down.

The Moray is very powerful – I can see that a list with three of them in would be horrible.  But they aren’t unbeatable, and they can be seen and shot from everywhere. In the game against Tom it was killed by the Shadowsword at the second attempt – first one was saved by the deflector. Tim took it out with shooting from a doubling Death Wheel. The deflector is pretty poor against ordinary fire, so anything with a significant amount of decent ranged firepower (such as a Leman Russ company) could cause problems.  I think Dobbsy’s suggestion of increasing the Moray to 350 pts is probably a good one, to prevent you taking more than 2 in a 3000pt game.

The one occasion that the Tau army felt in it's element was when I called co-ordinated fire with my Scorpionfish and Stingrays on Tom’s Regimental HQ. They were in range of my missiles by then, and markerlit, so I needed 3+ with the Scorpionfish’s AP missiles on sustain, ignoring cover. The Stingrays are also particularly good at taking on mech companies due to their mixed payload. Those two formations ripped the heart out of Tom’s HQ and it was polished off later in the turn to earn me the BTS.

However, in general my experience is that the Scorpionfish doesn’t achieve a huge amount, even when the enemy is markerlit – it did almost nothing against Tim’s army. It only fires 6 guided missiles at long range. I suppose if you had three Scorpionfish and maybe 6 markerlight sentries to saturate the enemy half it could start getting silly. But then you wouldn’t have a lot of support slots for other stuff. I like the idea of them (and I’ve converted a model!) so would like to see them stay in the list.

I like the way Crisis suits feel. They have to get quite close to use their powerful weaponry, but then run the risk of getting caught, so it’s a fun balancing act using them. I haven’t seen a real problem with the jet packs rule yet, as my crisis suits have still been caught in firefights sometimes (and in base to base by infiltrating daemons against Tim). However, I wouldn’t mind testing the suggested rule of jumping 10cm after firing – if the Crisis suits get their MW FF attack back, they would need something like this to tone them down.

That's about it for now.


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 Post subject: London Experimental Day - Tau games
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:38 am 
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Thanks for your thoughts. When things settle down a bit, I will go back through the threads and put together a new version of the list based on comments.

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 Post subject: London Experimental Day - Tau games
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:58 am 
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Aarrgggh, first attempt at this post has disappeared. So will try again:

Moray – I feel that this is a potentially very powerful element to the army and can agree with others that I can’t see why you wouldn’t max out on these. As Gary was playing a gentlemen’s list I only had to worry about 1. I got lucky with my Death Wheel as I got to activate it first and hit with my two battle cannons, both of which wounded breaking it before it could fire. It then had the audacity to rally and hit with both its Ion cannons causing 4 points of damage. Luckily the Wheel still had its full compliment of shields sot it didn’t break and was able to sustain again with the battle cannons removing the last point of damage. If we are going to keep these in the list then they should be costed to only allow a maximum of 2 in a 3000pt list.

Deflector Fields – I’m afraid that I think that these are just wrong. Giving a 4+ save against titan killer weapons is wrong, we are talking about a spacecraft that is trying not to crash into the ground and having a better save against the type of weapons specifically designed to bring it down. Give them an invulnerable save or at most a save running the other way 4+ normal, 5+ macro, 6+ tk. And then a second 5+ normal save. Or better still void shields.

Scorpionfish – only faced one of these again, max of 6 long range shots. Was not worried about this at all.

Markerlight Sentries – These should not be allowed to set up in the opposing half. I was playing with an army of 9 activations. I had to use 3 of them to clear the sentries before I could move on. (If I hadn’t of done this half of my army would have spent a turn lit up waiting to be shot.) I also don’t like the fact that they can not take Blast Markers. They should be suppressible and be able to be destroyed that way.

However saying all that the BL came close to stopping the Tau, placing my BTS Chosen in front of the army unsupported at the beginning of the first turn was a calculated gamble that didn’t come off, but they still soaked up a lot of hits which was a benefit. I did fail to activate for three engagements (4 1’s including a supreme commander re-roll) which dented my chances of claiming a win. But it was a great game a pleasure to play Garry, sorry I had to rush off but the train won’t wait for a gamer.

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 Post subject: London Experimental Day - Tau games
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:01 pm 
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If I can pop in here on the deflector fields, I'm sure you've already taken this into account, but the BFG variant simply increases the frontal armor unless a critical on the front is scored. I think this kind of thing in epic could be noted by the vehicles armor. Say, it's armor is listed as reinforced or thick armor unless a critical is scored on the craft.

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 Post subject: London Experimental Day - Tau games
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:24 pm 
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Gary - you pretty much hit every nail on the head about my experience with the Tau! Of particular note was your view on taking goals with the Tau. I've constantly found that I sit back in my own half to win games and I find that annoyingly boring - Static gun lines are a bit drab IMO but I'm forced to do this more often than not. I'd love to be able to strike forward more. It's kind of why I would like to see the FWs upgraded to 4+ FF so I can start moving forward more often. A 5+ FF is not reliable enough to engage with, given FWs brittleness.

Tim - Giving a 4+ save against titan killer weapons is wrong

Or better still void shields
So you would much prefer giving repairable auto saves to standard/MW/TK hits rather than making your opponent roll to save?

Ok!!! I'm up for Void shields! Thanks Tim :D ;)





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 Post subject: London Experimental Day - Tau games
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:35 pm 
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I've constantly found that I sit back in my own half to win games and I find that annoyingly boring - Static gun lines are a bit drab IMO but I'm forced to do this more often than not. I'd love to be able to strike forward more.


I think it's worth mentioning that this is the reason that Jstr19 has stopped using the SG list and started using the FW army list (With a few minor mods); The SG army list may well be balanced in the future, but its structure and available units promote static gunline behaviour (As Jstr and yourself say, it's not the most interesting style of gameplay).

The ForgeWorld army list, although it uses most of the same unit types, is much more aggressive in nature, partially because it lacks the Moray, Stingray & Scorpionfish, but also because of the generally smaller formation sizes (Made to match the pack sizes that FW sell) and the assault-biased Manta (Rather than having the Manta as yet another long range gun platform, in the FW list it is respectable at range, but an absolute nightmare in Engagements, so planetfalling with its bays packed full of Fire Warriors and Tanks becomes an interesting prospect).




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 Post subject: London Experimental Day - Tau games
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:02 am 
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I dont have a copy of the FW list is there one available on here?


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 Post subject: London Experimental Day - Tau games
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:36 am 
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Just for you Dobbsy :)

Rough copy of list

Note I'm not a fan, especially when you see the stats. Also I see nothing wrong with formation sizes matching the packs, however they should be multiples of the packs. Otherwise you do a popcorn list and co-ord fire to your hearts content, or simply massively out activate the opponent.

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 Post subject: London Experimental Day - Tau games
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:33 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 02 Jul. 2008, 23:24 )

Tim - Giving a 4+ save against titan killer weapons is wrong

Or better still void shields

So you would much prefer giving repairable auto saves to standard/MW/TK hits rather than making your opponent roll to save?

Ok!!! I'm up for Void shields! Thanks Tim :D ;)
No problem Dobbsy,

At least I can strip shields and then bring in the big guns to ake it down. As a DC 3 War Engine I would only expect it to have 2 Shields anyway.

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 Post subject: London Experimental Day - Tau games
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:26 am 
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On the Manta? DC8  :;):

It's funny that people don't ever complain about holofields at 3+ to all shooting....  :laugh:


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 Post subject: London Experimental Day - Tau games
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:09 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 04 Jul. 2008, 01:26 )

On the Manta? DC8  :;):

4 or 5 shields.

I should note that if the Moray had had shields in my game against Gary it would have not broken on the first turn and probably destroyed one of my Death Wheels over turn 1 and 2, but then I might have passed some more vital activation tests.

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 Post subject: London Experimental Day - Tau games
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:14 am 
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Why would Tau be aggressive in their warfare? Sure a static gunline is boring but it is what Tau warfare is. They don't throw troops into a close fight.

But I do agree that a single form of gameplay for a race is boring and bad (ref: Eldar MSM in Battlefleet Gothic).

Start with the basic gun army as the core. Add mobile elements to add suprises to the gunline.

Says an Epic noob....

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 Post subject: London Experimental Day - Tau games
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:34 pm 
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Why would Tau be aggressive in their warfare? Sure a static gunline is boring but it is what Tau warfare is. They don't throw troops into a close fight.


'Aggressive' doesn't equate to 'close fight', it simply means that the Tau have to move a bit to win, rather than Sustain Fire for three turns, with a few Crisis Suit formations nipping up the board late in turn 3 to claim objectives.

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