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Ye Gods, is it bad news when a game needs this?!!!
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Ye Gods, is it bad news when a game needs this?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:55 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 22 2008,12:14)
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I've no idea why you should be looking down upon this.

You realise Warhammer 40,000 is a game for kids, right?

Why? Typically in my experience that sort of precision being introduced into a game is bad news. It encourages argument, gamey positioning and detracts from the flow of the game.

I think its a sad state of affairs if a couple of 14 year olds can't decide about LOS without getting laser pointer pens out.

Especially when 40k seems to have a when in doubt have a save mentality now.

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haywire
 Post subject: Ye Gods, is it bad news when a game needs this?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:35 pm 
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For games like 40k I think its overkill because you are targetting a squad.

When I was playing Necromunda it was a godsend with all those catwalks and other crap in the way...
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Chaplain Leviticus
 Post subject: Ye Gods, is it bad news when a game needs this?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:01 pm 
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Should I stop using my LOS checker then?



"Excuse me while I check LOS.  I believe have it, don't you?"

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Ye Gods, is it bad news when a game needs this?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:21 pm 
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(haywire @ Jun. 22 2008,07:35)
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For games like 40k I think its overkill because you are targetting a squad.

5th Edition has new LOS rules

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Ye Gods, is it bad news when a game needs this?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:23 pm 
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(Chaplain Leviticus @ Jun. 22 2008,16:01)
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Should I stop using my LOS checker then?

I prefer your version to GWs.  You can use it to remove the kills as well.  :blues:  :D

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Ye Gods, is it bad news when a game needs this?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:27 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Jun. 22 2008,06:55)
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I think its a sad state of affairs if a couple of 14 year olds can't decide about LOS without getting laser pointer pens out.

I think its a sad state of affairs when people start commenting on an issue when they clearly don't appear to understand the rules changes and terrain interactions in the new edition that will make this sort of thing useful

Want to determine if your Marine Missile Trooper can see through the window and doorway of two terrain pieces to shoot at a target? No need to guess now.

40K is littered with Cities of Death, or similar, terrain that used to be area terrain and now isn't. It all has doorways, windows, half walls etc that people can now shoot through.

This will actually be handy if you have that sort of terrain around

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Ye Gods, is it bad news when a game needs this?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:54 pm 
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Meh... I've been using a laser pointer for years. Handy if it's hard to get a model's-eye-view due to cluttered terrain or if you can't be bothered to bend down. I use a laser-level that draws a red line across the board.
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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Ye Gods, is it bad news when a game needs this?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:43 pm 
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If it stops arguments about 'my guy can see your guy' then I think that this is a good thing. There are comments about increasing the strength and melting your enemies!   :p

I remain suspicious about the LOS/targeting rules of 5th Ed, but that is not necessarily a feature of the laser pointer itself. I have also heard that this is a very weak level laser rather than an LED. I have a laser pointer for games as well, but the rules dont require it.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Ye Gods, is it bad news when a game needs this?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:45 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Jun. 22 2008,08:54)
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I use a laser-level that draws a red line across the board.

Different type of LOS interactions in the new 40K so that sort of level isn't as useful in the game. You need something that can get a model's eye view of the LOS.

The markerlight has a small hook that fits over the model's head

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Ye Gods, is it bad news when a game needs this?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:49 pm 
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I don't think the 5th ed rules require you to use a games workshop laser pointer ?... they've just figured out how much of a market there is for accessories. For example, GW is very belatedly realising that there are a couple of companies making gorgeous-looking counters for Warhammer and 40K (and directly making money off GW's success) and finally releasing a counter set for 40K.


(pixelgeek @ Jun. 22 2008,12:45)
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[quote="Lord Inquisitor,Jun. 22 2008,08:54"]Different type of LOS interactions in the new 40K so that sort of level isn't as useful in the game. You need something that can get a model's eye view of the LOS.

Oh, it produces a red dot on the target too, so it'll still work fine. The level is just really useful for marking out the deployment zone, mostly.

The markerlight has a small hook that fits over the model's head

Oh, that's what that's for! Heh, never realised that. Cute.
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vanvlak
 Post subject: Ye Gods, is it bad news when a game needs this?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:57 pm 
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It's not a beam, it's a dot.

Even a laser won't produce a beam unless you're in a smokey room.

The beam is there, producing the dot on a surface at the end - just can't be seen, except in smoke, mist etc. as you rightly pointed out. An LED couldn't do that.
Class 2 isn't too terrible, but I hate the standard description of risk: loosely quoting: a class 2 laser is dangerous to the eye if pointed at it for 1 second or more; as the blink reflex is 0.1s, that is not a problem.
Don't like it one bit!

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Ye Gods, is it bad news when a game needs this?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:15 pm 
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(pixelgeek @ Jun. 22 2008,16:27)
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I think its a sad state of affairs when people start commenting on an issue when they clearly don't appear to understand the rules changes and terrain interactions in the new edition that will make this sort of thing useful

Want to determine if your Marine Missile Trooper can see through the window and doorway of two terrain pieces to shoot at a target? No need to guess now.

I do actually know that in the new edition if you can at all possibly see the target you get to shoot and it gets a 4+ cover save. (Incidentally I image all the dice rolling will be a lot like CS's beloved reaction rolls in ASC!)

As the margin of doubt is so large in favour of shooting the intent is clearly to take the shot and get on with the game. Not deploy the laser pointers and fidget the models.

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Chaplain Leviticus
 Post subject: Ye Gods, is it bad news when a game needs this?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:39 pm 
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Using a laser pointer can be handy but I can see it now: "If I can see your mini with the laser I can shoot it." ?No matter if it is shooting through the legs of another mini or two, through three windows, peeking through a space in the rubble, etc... ?yeah, it will get real stupid with no common sense applied.




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Erik M
 Post subject: Ye Gods, is it bad news when a game needs this?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:54 pm 
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Thank you Chaplain Leviticus, I think you nailed it there.
The first thing I thought when I heard about TLOS was "Totally LOSt it."
Going from "area terrain" is about the worst they can do in a game with the high level of competivness 40k of today has.




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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Ye Gods, is it bad news when a game needs this?!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:24 pm 
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Meh, area terrain had plenty of issues, and tracing LOS over and around area terrain was a pain, and often utterly rediculous. This is the sort of thing you'd see:

http://www.geocities.com/lordinquisitor/areaterrain.bmp

I think the game will be better for TLOS. Abstraction only aids in making watertight tournament rules, but after much consideration, I'd much rather have a set of rules that let me shoot that rhino I can blatantly see, thank you very much. Otherwise I can play chess.

I have a similar concern about laser pointers. I've had bad experiences in the past with people drawing "impossible" shots by virtue of the laser making it through. But we'll have to see what the rulebook says about TLOS. I don't think we'll have as many problems as people seem to think. Most of the time it'll be obvious.

But the laser will still be a useful tool. Precision is no bad thing - the "margin of doubt" argument could apply to charge ranges. Why bother measuring? Most of the time it's obvious!
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