(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 17 2008,18:32)
QUOTE Here's the thing, I'm quite certain that the Gun Cutter is a balanced unit.
I'm highly concerned that introducing a unit for which there is no model as a de-facto core component of the army list will make it an undesirable and marginalised army list as a consequence.
With this list also introducing a large number of new units (Inquisitors, two support staff units, Grey Knights, Drop Fortress, Mobile Fortress, etc), it's just a unit too far for me, especially as there's a suitable high command vehicle (The Aquilla Lander) due to be released.
Okay, several key points here. Now, E&C, my replies are (as always) going to seem defensive, but I do want to court you into the Inquisitorial fold, and I do appreciate your feedback. ?
Firstly, it's not a de facto choice. The Daemonhunters have Thunderhawks and Pegasi for air assaults and can call upon the Navy for air support. If you don't like gun-cutters, don't take them!
Secondly, what exactly do you mean by unbalanced? I've been testing this unit to exhaustion. I love it, and I'm pretty damn sure it's balanced. The only concern I have is that the Glavian is a no-brainer, so while the overall points value is good, I think the core cost could be cheaper and the glavian more expensive. What you mean by balanced must be something else - which is to say (and correct me if I'm wrong) you think it is unfair to have a vital unit with no model.
Thirdly, you say you're a fluff nut, have you read the Eisenhorn trilogy? Because the only really detailed descriptions of a full Inquisition Task Force replete with Ordo troops, chamber militant and allied units is in those books, and indeed that's what they're based upon and inspired by.
Fourthly, let me tell you what I'd be sympathetic to. Forgeworld are making an Aquila lander: you want to buy one of these and hit the table with it in an Epic game. Alright! Let's make rules for one - I'm happy to push the Pegasus out as a consequence. It'll need some tweaking to make it fit (going to have to think about this one) but it's an iconic vehicle and this is a prime list for this. That said, what I'm not keen on hearing is "I don't like gun-cutters because there's no model for one". If you don't like them, don't use them. The list SHOULD be balanced so that you don't need one, and if you feel that you do, then the unit isn't balanced. But the thing is, the Aquila is barely armed and the arvus isn't armed at all and neither fulfil the role of super-fast heavily-armed/armoured transport for a full retinue.
Fifthly, I don't really buy the lack-of-a-model argument. The Necron and Dark Eldar lists look fantastic without ANY model support. The gun-cutter IS an iconic vehicle for the Inquisition - several people, upon hearing about my Epic lists have said something to the effect of: "Cool! Will it have gun-cutters in it?"
I'm also a fluff nut, and yes, it does matter to me that shrouding should be 15cm+, because as I'm sure you're aware:
- Ranges are elastic in Epic (In fact, they are exponential ; 30cm is four times the distance represented by 15cm, etc. Jervis gets into this in the FAQ somewhere IIRC), and are often mutable too (Demolisher Cannons having a longer range than Lasguns, for example) as Epic is meant to be more realistic.
- The background / 40k rules make it clear that Grey Knights only tend to appear out from their Shrouding at Firefight ranges.
Okay, first of all, don't tell me this is a fluff issue. It is not. The ONLY fluff on the Shrouding is that little blurb in the Shrouding rule itself, which mentions nothing about the firefight range. "The combined psychic prayers of Grey Knights are focussed in battle to constantly confuse and wrong-foot their enemies, blinding their corrupted senses with the shining light of their faith and resolution." That's the sum total of the fluff on the Shrouding.
Basically, it boils down to the 40K rules and the rules alone. Shrouding has never been in the background to the Grey Knights - back when they first appeared in Space Hulk they were ungodly powerful, fully the match for a Space Marine Librarian. The 2nd ed 40K rules toned them down somewhat, giving them Holocaust and retaining their Aegis suits. Only with Daemonhunters did they aquire this Shrouding, which hasn't been mentioned anywhere else as far as I know (feel free to correct me on this if I'm wrong).
So: firstly, we're not directly translating the rules. You obviously accept this, as a direct translation would be something like any enemy outside 3D6x2cm cannot shoot the GKs.
Secondly, as you yourself said, the ranges are elastic. A direct 40K comparison would be to say that the shrouding really don't work, on average, at ranges less than a demolisher shell or an assault cannon.
In any case, the shrouding has an actual range of 9-54", with the latter end of the range being well outside lascannon range - which corresponds to 45cms in Epic.
Given the elastic nature of 40K ranges translated to Epic, give the variable actual range in 40K anyway, anything between 15cm and 45cm is reasonable from a 40K-rules perspective. So that gives us the leeway to make it whatever range works best for Epic.
I was tempted to not bother with Shrouding at all, after all it is just purely a 40K mechanic and not really there for fluff reasons at all. Still, the same applies to Epic as it does to 40K - pure GKs suffer from the fact that they have a short effective range. So the rule works in Epic, but it isn't going to work at 15cms.
Additionally, I feel that the -1 for shrouding should stack with the -1 for cover modifer. Hitting Grey Knights at ranges other than Firefights should be nigh-impossible, and it should be this Shrouding that makes taking a pure Grey Knight army list a non-silly prospect.
This I will listen to. However, it would require playtesting both ways. It could certainly work (and would make GKs more likely to hug cover!) but I'm concerned that -2 to hit makes GKs essentially untouchable.
Firstly, it's worth noting that Arvus Lighters also have VTOL capability.
Secondly, I don't think it's worth introducing another Special Rule (It'd require one) for this unit.
Well, if we're cutting out the special rules for the Inquisitors, got some space going begging.
I know it'd be a special rule, but a flyer/skimmer could be a very intersting new unit. Of course there are others that might have claim to this, but it could be a funky special rule for the Inquisition...
While we're at it, the Gun-cutter in Eisenhorn could also VOTL. In fact, one of my favourite scenes is when the cutter comes swooping down to support land speeders! So it could be a special rule that applies to gun-cutters, aquila and arvuses (i.e. it would be an army-wide rule not just a special unit).
I like it! E&C, you're a great help! ?
(The_Real_Chris @ Jun. 17 2008,20:11)
QUOTE
Just a question, surely grey knights have some sort of AA defence otherwise all it would take is one flying demon to kill them all.
Na, the only true flying daemons are the tzeenchian daemon engines and they're not really true, proper daemonic incursion-type daemons. Grey Knights can traditionally deal with flying daemons like screamers or lords of change the old-fashioned way and don't need fancy kit for that.
Really virtually all 40k armies lack AA units, its just easier for them that way in 40k. Leave out forgeworld and I think only the Tau get AA.
I know, but leaving out AA for the Grey Knights was a deliberate choice and one of the ways that they're differentiated from any other army. The Deathwatch have deathshriek interceptors, the Sisters have an exorcist variant for AA, but the GKs just flat out don't have any.
They don't have artillery, they don't have long-ranged firepower, they shouldn't have AA. If you take pure GKs, you're going to have to suck up the aircraft attacks, but hey, that's what the shrouding is there to protect you from!
I don't see anything wrong with allowing the Grey Knights access to the Hunter.
What?? Dear Emperor no... They don't have predators, whirlwinds - they don't even have rhinos!
If it were absolutely necessary to give them AA, then I would go for some kind of Land raider variant. But it's not necessary - if they need AA, they can be supported by Inquisitorial units (gun-cutters, black citadels), the navy or guard allies.
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