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Manticore
duz.holger
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 11:39 pm 
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yes but as my old man said when you need to put a nail in a board you don't need something  fancy you just need a big hammer. my point is the artillery company is good against armor and building but if you is a hord amry you isc onfronted by like orcs and nids you dont need the armor piercing capability (infantry normally die when hit) you need cover firer instead and lot of it

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Warhead
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:21 am 
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I don't believe an increase in BP or Template size is the way to go, just Too complicated.

However I HATE having bought stuff I never get to use as the rule for it sucks... something has to change.

For a few years now I have been using old Manticore models with a -1 TSM increase at normal cost and the Newish bigger looking Manticore as a new unit (Cerberus Heavy Rocket Launcher with same stats as a Manticore but with decreased ranged 100cm and a -2 TSM for 225pnts) so far this has worked fine (even when I was on the receiving end) with no hiccups... yet.

I looked at the Russian Katyusha  rocket trucks of WWII and thought the similarity to be just right (most descriptions are of a heavy if inaccurate barrage) and so made the TSM increase to make the Manticore effective and not a unit to be avoided. Also its a simple fix easy to remember.

I agree Whirlwinds are crap on toast but shouldn't be. Why not allow them different payloads each turn...

AT Salvo - 150cm 2BP -1TSM 6cm Template
AP Salvo - 150cm 2BP -0TSM 10cm Template or 6cm Template and ignore or reduce cover modifier
AA Salvo - 150cm 5+ -1TSM Snap Fire (each Whirlwind fires independently)

All for 150pnts what's not to like?

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zap123
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:01 am 
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Whirlwinds are supposed to be crap...they are the only artillery available to (most) Marines....who shouldn't have good artillery.  If you want good artillery, play IG or Squats.

As for the Manticore...if you're annoyed at having minis for sucky units call them something else.  Use them as Bombards or Deathstrikes (cool as a Barrage missile) or just sell 'em.  I used my Mk2 ones to replace the dodgy Havoc rack on a Banelord and as some Barrage launchers on Warlords!  The Mk1s I use as Hunters.  The IG has so much effective arty something has got to suck.

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Warhead
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:25 am 
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Hi zap 123,

Perhaps you are right and I like all the above possibilities, but personal preference sways me to tweak the stats slightly.

I just feel that if units suck they would shortly be discontinued for better units. Maybe in that case PDF get all the outdated dross on the cheap (-25pnts) while the Guard and especially the Tech Guard have more up to date or useful units.

You must admit too it is a bit irritating when you've read stories of Whirlwinds causing all sorts of devastation etc or even look at the model thinking 'great!' and then see for your self they have the combined firepower of a limp fart.
Surely Space Marines in the stories who rattle on and on about the codex, martial pride and the arts of war etc would feel a bit embarrassed and possibly suffer artillery envy after trading artillery fire with the enemy...

CHAPTER CODEX

'Know no fear...'
'Suffer not the unclean to live...'
'Abhor the Whirlwind, it's a bit naff...'
'Rely on mortals for Artillery support because after a century of war we still haven't fixed that bloody problem yet... but it's on our to do list...'
'No pity! No remorse! No Artillery!'

Sure I understand about game balance but do we have to lose sight of the background fluff too? (But I like the Fluff...)

I don't mean to make such a big issue of this but I am enjoying myself none the less. (Sorry if I offend anyone by being an uppity newbe)

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loofnick
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:56 am 
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:D

The ultimate warriors have never been much good at killing stuff, but that's true of everything in any sci-fi war game.  Really it's GW fault for obsessively heroiscing**  Space Marines in the fluff.  Simple problem is the moment you make Whirlywinds worth their points, you get artillery heavy marine lists appearing in games, which is quite wrong.  I suppose you could increase performance and still make them cost too much, but it seems kinda pointless.

At least they are better then thudd guns.  Personally I prefer Mole Mortars over the Whirlys, but there's not much in it.  Against a horde army they are still  useful- consider what else in the army you can use to kill massed infantry for the same points, and at range.

** that's definitely not a word, but I'm using it anyway.
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Warhead
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:10 pm 
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Hi loofnick,

A very true point, but should that continue? Also yes you are correct, no doubt you would get some unscrupulous player (who me?!) trying to push the boundary so how about this...

Whirlwind 150pnts
25cm move, 4+ save,+0 Caf, Turret, PD1

AT Salvo - 150cm 2BP -1TSM 6cm Template
AP Salvo - 150cm 2BP -0TSM 6cm Template -1 reduce cover
AA Salvo - 150cm 5+   -1TSM Snap Fire

Different payloads as above but you must chose before play and may not change the type during a battle and you may only include one detachment per Company Card taken. (After all it's for support not a main unit.)

This way you have a cheap (not overly so) but usable unit that can't be zealously overused by... us. It also has enough going for it to make it interesting and worthwhile (covering some short comings for Marines) while still being mid ranged in ability.

Heh, aren't we supposed to be talking about the Manticore?!?... damn it, de-railed again...

P.S. I have lots of Epic Pictures + Battle Reports (you know... Crap) I would like to post but I am a hopeless techno-caveman (I thought a URL was in a public toilet) can anyone help me please. (Too needy huh?)

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Pettan
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:24 pm 
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Hello Warhead and welcome to the merry forum. ;)

One idea that might very well be crappy is to increase the number of units to 5 in a whirlwind detachment and make them cost 200... This would make it 10 BP:s  - 2+ to hit under the template and only an increase of 50 pts.

Guess that most marine units are bought as 3 and 3.. It might make it abit better though..

Isnt there anything that we can do for the manticores and/or the whirlwind? What I feel at the moment from the forum the answer to that question is "No"..

/Peter - back to the fotball games




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Warhead
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:11 pm 
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Hi Pettan,
             
Thanks for the welcome... (Mary Fore-arm?!? what kind of sight is this?!)

I'm happy to use Whirlwinds with a modest change in stats but a 2+ to hit and making them harder to break is overkill... literally.

Even for 200pnts it's too cheap and five vehicles in a detachment sort of feel's a bit Orky too. It's ok for light units like Bikes and Land Speeders or even infantry Support Weapons like Tarantulas etc but I just don't think it clicks for the Space Marine Whirlwinds.

No doubt we all have experiences of what happens when  units get targeted with a 2+ To Hit roll and it isn't pretty... unless of course it's you doing the targeting or you try to use other similar 2+ To Hit roll units like Magnus the Myopic (No depth perception) who constantly rolls a 1 or that flaming useless Avatar chap who saves (dies) on a 2+ much to your opponents amusement. (Chaos bast***)

I do believe changes can and should be made and most of you (a very big assumption there, sorry) must feel the same otherwise NetEpic would never have been thought of (A horrible thought.) It's just a bit tricky getting a balance we can live with. (No frightful Einstein, Preachy much.) I find bribing opponents with reciprocal changes to their units works. Or violence, yeah that can sometimes work too.

[/QUOTE] I like games but don't play silly buggers.

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Pettan
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:47 pm 
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Yea. Didnt really like it either.

I for one never play with whirlwinds. Id rather take a titan with MRL or quakes..

/P-man

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Warhead
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:03 pm 
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Death Strike-tastic (Nuke em from orbit... its the only way to be sure)

If I play Marines I prefer to combine with PDF, TG or IG but normally only use this against Nids or Chaos as it's a bit like cheating combining stuff all the time.

Titans rule. I can't see past the weapons fit of two barrage missile (or Vortex Missiles), a Chain Fist, Plasma Cannon and Close Combat Head on a Warlord... walking deathstorm.

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primarch
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:00 pm 
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Hi!

One idea to make the whirlwinds "worthwhile". I would say that there roll is as support and it should be mobile. So why no make them able to fire barrages directly AND indirectly on advance orders without scatter? Isn't that what mobile artillery is suppose to do?

Also the way the turret with the rockets work it should be able to fire barrages at point blank range (thus being able to fire close even under 50cm).

This way there are no stat changes and one (or two) simple modifications and it would be more useful.

For the manticore I think the only thing to do is eliminate the reload restriction.

I don't think its all that powerful that firing every turn would unbalance it.

Thoughts?

Primarch

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Warhead
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:06 am 
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Hi Primarch,

I really quite like your Whirlwind idea but will have to try out the one for Manticores.

I suppose you could argue that such a heavy rocket barrage should be relentless and fire every turn. I wouldn't like to be the Ork player facing that though.

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primarch
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:08 am 
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(Warhead @ Jun. 09 2008,19:06)
QUOTE
Hi Primarch,

I really quite like your Whirlwind idea but will have to try out the one for Manticores.

I suppose you could argue that such a heavy rocket barrage should be relentless and fire every turn. I wouldn't like to be the Ork player facing that though.

Hi!

Test it out and get back to me. The netepic gold versions of the books will be finalized by September, so you got time to test and give me feedback.  :)

Primarch

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Warhead
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:11 am 
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Consider it done.

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loofnick
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:02 am 
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(primarch @ Jun. 09 2008,23:00)
QUOTE
One idea to make the whirlwinds "worthwhile". I would say that there roll is as support and it should be mobile. So why no make them able to fire barrages directly AND indirectly on advance orders without scatter? Isn't that what mobile artillery is suppose to do?

Also the way the turret with the rockets work it should be able to fire barrages at point blank range (thus being able to fire close even under 50cm).

Thoughts?

1st I thought it was a good idea, then I realised i wouldn't bother to move the mobile artillery.  The larger move is supposed to help it get direct shots anyway.  Why can't it fire under 50cm already?

25 cm move and allow indirect fire with scatter on advance orders?  not much of an advance, but I really don't think they should have much.

AT Salvo - 150cm 2BP -1TSM 6cm Template
AP Salvo - 150cm 2BP -0TSM 6cm Template -1 reduce cover
AA Salvo - 150cm 5+   -1TSM Snap Fire

Different payloads as above but you must chose before play and may not change the type during a battle and you may only include one detachment per Company Card taken. (After all it's for support not a main unit.)

Nice idea, but just don't really want this complication.

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