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Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:26 am 
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Originally posted by CyberShadow

Originally posted by Harbish

We've started using the FW book rules in my group (With a few mods based on the latest fan rules) as we find it more balanced, and Fire Warriors are actually useful.


That is an unusual comment. Could you expand on it, as I am genuinely interested in the key problems with the SG list that your group sees.

Thanks.


Sure.

It comes down to a few key reasons:

1 - Formation sizes tally with the packs that FW sell (So formations of Fire Warriors especially aren't prohibitively expensive).

2 - There's no tank formation as a core choice.

3 - The Scorpionfish missile barge is not in the list.

4 - The Morays aren't in the list (We talked a long while about this one and concluded that ultimately the Morays offer nothing that the two Tigersharks don't offer).

5 - Ethereals are Inspiring.

6 - It has the MW Hammerhead available in the core list.

7 - The human Aux don't have ranged guns and so aren't competing for the exact same role as Fire Warriors.

8 - The 'Networked Drones' upgrade isn't in the list (This is a good thing as it was overly-fiddly).

9 - The armour save on the Crisis suits is only 4+ (Meaning that they can't attack the enemy with relative impunity; Like Space Marines they must pick their fights carefully).

10 - The 'robotic sentry' special rule isn't in the list (A good thing).

11 - Due to the list having less reliance on guided missiles and Morays, and the Crisis Suits being a little more vulnerable, it isn't so frustrating to play against.



Overall, the formations tend to be smaller, which shifts the focus more towards lots of small formations rather than a few key formations (The absense of the normally omnipresent Moray or Scorpionfish 'crutches' help this feeling, as the Tau player can't simply sit at the back of the board blasting away at any enemy that moves into range with relative impunity***).

The FW list has plenty of problems (The Manta's speed is an obvious typo that should be 20cm instead of Bomber) and we've been using the SG list's points costs for the aircraft, and one or two of our own points and stats nudges, and the Ion Cannon Hammerhead stats from the SG list, but we all agree that the FW list provides a more 'Tau-feeling' experience than the SG list at the present time, once you apply a few nessesary checks and balances..

Our regular Tau player's competetive list under the SG rules was made of Battlesuits, Hammerheads and Morays, and it swept all before it ; Under the FW list the army 'looks' more like a Tau army with Fire Warriors and Tau aircraft being more prominent.


I'm sure some of the others will be able to offer more thoughts, most especially our Tau player Jstr19.




*** Our Tau player went 12 games for 12 wins against me at one point, with similar results against other players. Now he's moved to the FW list, he's started to lose games again.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:39 pm 
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Could you post that super list?


There's no one super list that he's used.

Jstr chopped and changed his army list for 12 games straight, and for 12 games I failed to even draw against him. Likewise his winning streak against other players is hugely out of kilter.

The only common feature in all the lists was that they all had 2 Morays ; Jstr doesn't even need the 'Sentry Drone Spam' to win, to paraphrase him:

'That wouldn't even be a game, it can't be beaten. What would be the point?'.



IMo points 3, 6, 9 and 11 are very good reasons to not playing FW list

3 - It's broken, especially when you make it a super-Moray with the SC upgrade.

6 - It's not as dangerous as a Moray or a Scorpionfish, even en-mass. Especially when there's no core tank formation.

9 - They're too good in the SG list. You don't need any other infantry in the army if you can take ~3 Crisis Suit formations (They'll always have lots of drones soaking up hits before you even get to lay a hit on a Crisis unit).

Personally I'd like to see a restriction that says 'You may not take more Crisis Suit formations than Fire Warrior formations' ; Armies solely composed of Crisis Suits and Tanks as core formations are NOT fluffy and do not properly represent the Tau.

11 - Perhaps you'd agree after seeing the list in action more regularly. :)


I'm in for a game with Morays, so should get a better feel on them after this.

If you know ahead of time you're facing Tau you can tailor a list to beat them.

We always play blind, so we don't know what army we'll be facing each week ; I've played many, many games against Moray-heavy lists, and they're simply worth a lot more than their current points cost implies... they've become a worse crutch for the Tau than Warhound Titans for Marines.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:58 pm 
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This has nothing to do with that. I dislike the idea that every little nit needs to have it's own stats in Epic. This is one of those pointless little details that shouldn't make a dent in this scale. Unless it's a variant list of Tau world which would use them en masse.


I don't see it being any different from having three types of Land Speeder (A very minor unit after all).

Perhaps it's inclusion makes the SG Tau list look bloated, but that's only because it's an all-in-one army list, rather than a specific type of army (Which for all its flaws, the FW list does offer).


I would like to see them restored to what they were before the latest list. I've never really had problems dealing with them.

IIRC Iain's doing exactly that in the next revision.

I'm surprised you've found them easy to deal with.


Does your opponent properly kit them out with Drones?

What are your anti-Crisis tactics?




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:10 pm 
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Does the crisis jump back into a range of a supporting formation pre air assault?

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zombocom
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:07 pm 
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(Hena @ Jun. 08 2008,13:23)
QUOTE
They jump pack before opponent moves. This means that they cannot escape air assault.

True, but they can usually jump back away from other marine formations which are there to support fire, and into range of Tau support fire.

If they're so far away from other tau formations that they can't do this with the jumpback then they're being used wrong.

And even so, sure, you can take them out with thunderhawk engagements, but what about non air-assault lists? How are they supposed to deal with them. Infantry can rarely engage them, and can never close combat them. Shooting them is relatively ineffective due to drones, a 3+ save and their superior return firepower.

Overall, E&C's main point is that the SG list just doesn't play like the background. Tau armies should be composed mostly of Fire Warriors. I cannot understand why tanks and suits are core options. That is so utterly against the background it stuns me.

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Onyx
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:57 pm 
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You know, a lot of people have spent a lot of money on FW (including BFG) Tau (and buying other suppliers products for proxies).

I KNOW that this is no reason to keep the list as is but I'm afraid you are going to have to find a way to make the existing list work or you may not find many followers (I'm certainly not interested in mothballing some of my Tau army).

Changing unit costs is acceptable (as I've stated MANY times before, there is NO SUCH THING as overpowered, there is just underpriced), even slighjtly modifying unit abilities (jump pack for example) is acceptable but removing units all together is not the solution.

I don't mind your solution to the Jump pack issue (move 10cm after shooting and thats it). It's worth a try.

Hammerheads will always be a core unit when played here, as will the ScorpionFish and the Morays (maybe with adjusted points values, especially for the SC upgrade).

The Human Aux don't need the ranged attack, good call.

I prefer the 3+ armour save on the Crisis suits (but I'm not overly fussed either way). Strip the escorting Gun Drones with AP fire and hit em with MW or assault them (admittedly, much esier to do using your version of the Jet Pack rule which is groing on me every time I think about it - simpler and still has some benefit). They are not indestructible (with either armour save).

The Robotic Sentry rule is a good thing and will definately continue to be available to any Tau player here although at a much higher cost - say 100pts for a unit of 3 (other local players want to borrow my army and I have no problem playing against it).

I'm sure you'll pick my post apart, point by point as usual, but there must be counters to you point of view on this (or at least other, less drastic options) and thats what I've written here. Oh, and I'm not into Math-hammer...
I just want to play a fair game using the army that I've spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars on... I don't think we are too far from that.

Please don't take my comments here personally E&C. I'm glad you're still interested in helping to finishing off the Tau list.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:08 pm 
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I'm sure you'll pick my post apart, point by point as usual, but there must be counters to you point of view on this (or at least other, less drastic options) and thats what I've written here.


Of course, that is the nature of all debate.


I KNOW that this is no reason to keep the list as is but I'm afraid you are going to have to find a way to make the existing list work or you may not find many followers (I'm certainly not interested in mothballing some of my Tau army).

As a plaintive aside, 'mothballing' would involve:

Using your proxy Morays as Spacecraft (Since everyone uses Tau spacecraft for Morays).
Using your proxy Scorpionfish as an Orca.


I fought long and hard to keep the Leman Russ Tank Destroyer in the Krieg list, but when it became clear that it just wasn't appropriate to the army list it got ripped out, regardless of my personal model collection.

I don't mind your solution to the Jump pack issue (move 10cm after shooting and thats it). It's worth a try.

I recommend you try it in combination with Jstr19's proposed Crisis Suit weapon stats (IIRC two ranged shots plus a MW FF shot to represent their third weapon). The MWFF isn't so overpowered when they have no guarantee of being able to jump away from CC with the enemy when the Engagement begins.

Hammerheads will always be a core unit when played here, as will the ScorpionFish and the Morays

I'm sorry but that is not a Tau army.

That's some kind of made up army with flying Titans and missile barges.

Perhaps it's fitting for a Tau variant army list which focuses on Super-Heavies, but not for the core Tau army list. The structure of the core list really should look more like the FW list structure if it is to properly 'feel' like a Tau army list.

Read the last paragraph of Zombocom's somewhat blunt post above yours. :)



Please don't take my comments here personally E&C.

I'll try not to. :)

I'm sorry if I come across blunt here, but I feel strongly that there's potential for a good Tau list (Or two, or three) in what we have currently, but right now the SG list is not offering my group a gameplay experience to equal the (Flawed) FW army list, and that's a shame.

I'm glad you're still interested in helping to finishing off the Tau list.

Indeed. I think it's a real shame that the FW list isn't workable without a bunch of mods, and that the SG list has some different but equally serious issues.



I just want to play a fair game using the army that I've spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars on... I don't think we are too far from that.

I think the SG list has some decent sized issues, both of balance and of 'feel'.

I too would be annoyed if I couldn't use the models I'd bought/converted, which is why I suggested that perhaps some of the SHT vehicles could be moved to a 'core tanks and Morays/Scorpionfish' variant army list, so that they don't impinge upon the nature of the core Tau list.

The SG Tau list tries to accomplish an all-in-one army list, and ultimately ends up as a min-maxable 'army of core tanks and flying titans'... whilst writing this post I've come to the conclusion that perhaps splitting the list could be a darned good solution.

There could be two lists:

- Mechanised Tau list (More like the FW list in structure and feel)
- Armoured Tau list (Armoured vehicles as core, as well as the expanded Super-Heavy vehicle options from the current SG list).




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zombocom
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:09 pm 
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Onyx: What it comes down to is this...

Playing with and against the FW Tau list has turned out to be more fun for both players than the current llist. It rewards a more direct and offensive style of play, is much more fitting with the background and makes use of more of the available models (MW hammerhead etc).

Playing against the SG Tau list is always irritating, similar to playing against a gunline in warhammer fantasy. If I can make it to his lines before he wipes me out, I win, if not I lose. Not much in the way of tactics, not much in the way of fun.

The FW list, by virtue of no core tank companies, smaller formaton sizes, more fragile suits and no crutch units like the Moray, leads to a more MSU army that works with varied units using movement and mutual support, not just as a tank/suit/superheavy skimmer gunline.

Or so it seems to me. I'm sure there are major flaws in the FW list that someone will care to point out to me?




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:17 pm 
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I'm sure there are major flaws in the FW list that someone will care to point out to me?


There are plenty of flaws, most prominent of which is that most of the aircraft options are much too cheap in points cost (And I mean broken-cheap).




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Pulsar
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:01 pm 
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my experiences with the SG Tau list have almost always been to lose against it,

i have yet to play the modfiyed FW list but i've seen a few games played and i'm looking forward to seening how i do, which Vs Tau has been a rair thing in the past.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Debate on the FW list from the SG forum.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:23 pm 
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I hate to say it but my own personal experience with the Tau drove away my opponents who now refuse to play against it.  With new players I've met I am sure I'll have an opportunity to play and playtest again, but for over two years my Tau have collected dust.

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