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v3.11 comments
pixelgeek
 Post subject: v3.11 comments
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:53 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Jun. 03 2008,10:57)
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PG since very few (no one?) seems to like the skitarri list if you'd test that lots and improve it, it would be great!

Is that the Tech Guard list?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: v3.11 comments
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:48 am 
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Isn't there going to be a separate knightworld list, too? That's what I thought was going to happen. The idea was to separate the huge AMTL v2 list into 3 separate v3 lists, 2 of which we are discussing here. The knight list is on the backburner for now.

Right?


The prototype Knightworld list already exists:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....t=12122

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: v3.11 comments
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:49 am 
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I like the Skitarii list. I just haven't gotten around to playing it yet.


I've played against it once (A chap I know who's just getting back into Epic).

It had quite an interesting feel.

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redsimon
 Post subject: v3.11 comments
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:33 pm 
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Things which should be made clearer in the 3.11 list:

The Sentinels: are thy the ones from the rules book?
The 2.0 list had Sentinels with Lascannons. If the ones in the 3.11 list are ordinary Sentinels, this should be mentione in the units lists, along with all other ordinary units from the ruless book (Marauder, Thunderbolt). It would be better though to include their stats in the list. The same goes for the tech-guard list.

As i have already mentioned in the 3.11 thread, I have problems with some changes.
Why the removal of the Hydras? What's wrong with Titans having protection from aerial assault? The background mentions this. I know they have now access to their own AA weapon, but the ordinary battle-titan has no AA weapon except sometimes Carapace Multilasers.

A bigger problem for me is the removal of Infantry on fooot or in tanks. The army still has to hold objectives. Forcing the infantry into Corvus Assault Pods (which again most Titans have not) is IMO excessive (terms of making the list too much Titan-based).

I know I wasn't there when the changes were made, but that's my opinion.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: v3.11 comments
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:00 am 
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The Sentinels: are thy the ones from the rules book?

Yes.

The 2.0 list had Sentinels with Lascannons. If the ones in the 3.11 list are ordinary Sentinels, this should be mentione in the units lists, along with all other ordinary units from the ruless book (Marauder, Thunderbolt). It would be better though to include their stats in the list. The same goes for the tech-guard list.

I'll introduce a set of notes to say where the other unit stats can be found.

As i have already mentioned in the 3.11 thread, I have problems with some changes.
Why the removal of the Hydras? What's wrong with Titans having protection from aerial assault? The background mentions this. I know they have now access to their own AA weapon, but the ordinary battle-titan has no AA weapon except sometimes Carapace Multilasers.

A bigger problem for me is the removal of Infantry on fooot or in tanks. The army still has to hold objectives. Forcing the infantry into Corvus Assault Pods (which again most Titans have not) is IMO excessive (terms of making the list too much Titan-based).

I think you perhaps be more interested in the 'Skitarii PDF' army list than the AMTL army list.

Remember, and Adeptus Mechanicus Titan Legion is an army of Titans that goes to war unsupported, the only assets that fight alongside it are assets that have been assigned to the AMTL by the Adeptus Mechanicus Tech Lords...

A Skitarii army is an Adeptus Mechanicus army that uses technology and assets from all areas of the Ad-Mech (And looks more like the V2 list).

It was a failing of the V2 list that it was basically 3 army lists in one (Ad-Mech Skitarii PDF, AMTL, Knightworld) that failed to focus on any of the 3 armies properly.

Note that in the next version of the Skitarii PDF army list, they'll be allowed 50% titan allies, and will also gain access to the Forge Knights.

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redsimon
 Post subject: v3.11 comments
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:06 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 19 2008,12:00)
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I think you perhaps be more interested in the 'Skitarii PDF' army list than the AMTL army list.

Not really, I chose AMTL because I wanted to paint as little miniatures as possible.
Remember, and Adeptus Mechanicus Titan Legion is an army of Titans that goes to war unsupported, the only assets that fight alongside it are assets that have been assigned to the AMTL by the Adeptus Mechanicus Tech Lords...

A Skitarii army is an Adeptus Mechanicus army that uses technology and assets from all areas of the Ad-Mech (And looks more like the V2 list).

It was a failing of the V2 list that it was basically 3 army lists in one (Ad-Mech Skitarii PDF, AMTL, Knightworld) that failed to focus on any of the 3 armies properly.

Note that in the next version of the Skitarii PDF army list, they'll be allowed 50% titan allies, and will also gain access to the Forge Knights.

I know, I don't want all units back, I never was a friend of "all-in-one". I would be happy with all Knights removed from the list.

50% Titan allies for Skitarii army sounds good. Can the Titans in that future list choose all upgrades/weapons that the current AMTL-list allows?

BTWIi still have some proposals for the list. I humbly present to you:


redsimon's 5 magic AMTL v3.11 proposals
1.) The Veteran Princeps upgrade should be allowed for Warhound Titans (or at least one Titan in a pack). There are even Veteran Titan commanders mentioned in the background!
2.) The Skitarii unit should have Chimeras as transport option (5 for 125 points). I don't see a reason why you have to have a Titan with CAP to field them.
3.) The Inferno Gun should have indirect fire as ability. Otherwise it will never be chosen for Battle Titans. With its short range it would not be overpowered.
4.) Similar proposal for Vulcan Megabolter: It should havestats 5xAP3+/AT6+ or 4xAP2+/AT6+ to be a reasonable choice for Battle Titans.
5.) Hydra flak units back (3 for 150 points). I now there is the flak weapon option for Battle Titans, but you should not be forced to use it. A flak umbrella for your Titans fits in the background.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: v3.11 comments
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:08 pm 
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(redsimon @ Jun. 19 2008,13:06)
QUOTE
redsimon's 5 magic AMTL v3.11 proposals
1.) The Veteran Princeps upgrade should be allowed for Warhound Titans (or at least one Titan in a pack). There are even Veteran Titan commanders mentioned in the background!
2.) The Skitarii unit should have Chimeras as transport option (5 for 125 points). I don't see a reason why you have to have a Titan with CAP to field them.
3.) The Inferno Gun should have indirect fire as ability. Otherwise it will never be chosen for Battle Titans. With its short range it would not be overpowered.
4.) Similar proposal for Vulcan Megabolter: It should havestats 5xAP3+/AT6+ or 4xAP2+/AT6+ to be a reasonable choice for Battle Titans.
5.) Hydra flak units back (3 for 150 points). I now there is the flak weapon option for Battle Titans, but you should not be forced to use it. A flak umbrella for your Titans fits in the background.

Hi Red good to have you back on the boards, couple of comments to your proposals.

1) Vet Princeps for Warhounds would give the Warhounds a big boost and possibly a boost worth more than 25pts - A broken Hound would rally with no Blast Markers. I also think that Commander could potential be too powerful for them allowing Hounds to call a further two formations to engage could be too much.

2) This is an army style point, early v3.x testing showed that the support formations were more important than the Battle Titans. Reducing these options places the focus back on the titans.

3) An indirect range of 60cm for the Inferno would IMHO be too much for a free weapon, we are talking about a essentially a huge flame thrower with a potential range greater than Lascannons, missile launchers & heavy bolters.

4) For power players such as myself the Megabolter is a great weapon. From my point of view it gives me a high number of shots from each hard point and whilst keeping a battle titan's point cost low.

5) Similar point to number 2 here. The list is currently focused on the titans striding out of their holding area to engage the enemy (similar to extract from the book 'Legion') and leaving their support troops behind.

Thanks again for your comments.

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redsimon
 Post subject: v3.11 comments
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:04 pm 
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(Tiny-Tim @ Jun. 19 2008,15:08)
QUOTE

1) Vet Princeps for Warhounds would give the Warhounds a big boost and possibly a boost worth more than 25pts - A broken Hound would rally with no Blast Markers. I also think that Commander could potential be too powerful for them allowing Hounds to call a further two formations to engage could be too much.

That's why I would allow the option only for a single Titan in each Warhound pack, not both and not on single Warhounds.

2) This is an army style point, early v3.x testing showed that the support formations were more important than the Battle Titans. Reducing these options places the focus back on the titans.

The support formations cannot get very important in that list as you have to buy expensive Titans for every two choices. Such a formation (Skitarii with Chimeras) would only be 25 points more expensive than a Forge Knight unit and cheaper than the Warhound pack.
The point is that I think you should not be forced to have a Titan with a CAP (which means to build a CAP yourself and also forces you to field an extremely specialised Titan) to field the only infantry unit in the list.

3) An indirect range of 60cm for the Inferno would IMHO be too much for a free weapon, we are talking about a essentially a huge flame thrower with a potential range greater than Lascannons, missile launchers & heavy bolters.
Yeah, I forgot the doubled range. This can be fixed easily though, just make 30cm's its maximum range even when firing indirect, with a minimum range of 15 cm's.

4) For power players such as myself the Megabolter is a great weapon. From my point of view it gives me a high number of shots from each hard point and whilst keeping a battle titan's point cost low.
Agreed, I think now it is still suitable. Not on Warlords though, IMO.

5) Similar point to number 2 here. The list is currently focused on the titans striding out of their holding area to engage the enemy (similar to extract from the book 'Legion') and leaving their support troops behind.
Well, then you should get rid of the Sentinels also. I know they're recon, but you can invent a reason for just about anything to field it. I want the Hydras back because I think it is reasonable for Titans to have AA support when on their own (big targets who can't hide) and as with the Sktarii I don't think you should be forced to choose the Enhanced Hydra Turret to have decent AA support.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: v3.11 comments
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:55 pm 
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50% Titan allies for Skitarii army sounds good. Can the Titans in that future list choose all upgrades/weapons that the current AMTL-list allows?


Indeed. They already can, in fact (Check, IIRC, page 3 of the AMTL army list doc for the Skitarii army list).


1.) The Veteran Princeps upgrade should be allowed for Warhound Titans (or at least one Titan in a pack). There are even Veteran Titan commanders mentioned in the background!

I was looking at putting this into the next version. Rug has also been asking for this.

Note that Tiny-Tim makes some very good theory-hammer points against it.

2.) The Skitarii unit should have Chimeras as transport option (5 for 125 points). I don't see a reason why you have to have a Titan with CAP to field them.

Again, this is a prominent feature of the Skitarii army list, but is something I specifically wanted to avoid with the AMTL army list.

The AM Titan Legion army list is about Titans, not about infantry. At all costs I wanted to avoid the potentiality of having an infantry-heavy force with this army list.

3.) The Inferno Gun should have indirect fire as ability. Otherwise it will never be chosen for Battle Titans. With its short range it would not be overpowered.

I reckon it's a pretty good weapon as-is, and I've seen it used to good effect on a Reaver.

As said above, indirect would certainly be too-powerful an ability.

4.) Similar proposal for Vulcan Megabolter: It should havestats 5xAP3+/AT6+ or 4xAP2+/AT6+ to be a reasonable choice for Battle Titans.

I'm not going to change the stats of previously published official weapons, not without a huge driving cause.
5.) Hydra flak units back (3 for 150 points). I now there is the flak weapon option for Battle Titans, but you should not be forced to use it. A flak umbrella for your Titans fits in the background.

Not in the background of an Adeptus Mechanicus Titan Legion.

In the background of a Skitarii army, or for Titans allied with IG/SM, sure, but when operating alone....


The second reason why I'm currently against this going in is because one of the hallmark weaknesses of the AMTL army list is supposed to be a poor AA capacity.

I would prefer we found a solution that made carapce-multilasers / Enhanced Hydras a worthwhile choice, rather than simply giving up and saying that an AMTL consists of Titans, Knights, their sentinel scouts, and a bunch of Hydras (Because the AMTL couldn't work out a way to fit decent AA guns to their Titans...).

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redsimon
 Post subject: v3.11 comments
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:42 pm 
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@ Evil and Chaos: Did you read my last post? I made some changes to some proposals.

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redsimon
 Post subject: v3.11 comments
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:05 pm 
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Some additional comments:
1.) Forge Knights: Are they crewed by people from the Knight Worlds? I would say they aren't. This should be included in their background. Maybe even call them "Legion Forge Knights" to make it clear.
2.) The same with Marauder/Thunderbolt. They are not in their special "box" so should be called "Imperial Navy".
3.) Corvus Assault Pod: Add "EA+1 Small Arms OR EA+1 Assault Weapons" so that you can use it with Titan without Skitarii (list). Also add to the rules: "Can transport other formations even in tournament scenarios."




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nealhunt
 Post subject: v3.11 comments
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:11 pm 
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WEs can always transport other formations.

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redsimon
 Post subject: v3.11 comments
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:24 pm 
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True, I mixed something up.

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