Tactical Command | View topic - Squats revisited, Stubborn

Page 3 of 4

[ 50 posts ]

Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

View unanswered posts | View active topics View unread posts | View new posts | View your posts

Squats revisited, Stubborn

Erik M

Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:24 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:41 pm
Posts: 1480
Location: Gothenburg,Sweden

People are still very much looking at assault as a way to show stubborn.
Yeah sure the marines of WWII where stubborn. Where all others took 20% and retreated the marines had to take 80% before even considering "let's find another spot" an option.

If we want to keep it for assault, then "no negative modifiers" or Inspiring etc, if we want a general stubborn regarding "holding up under fire" then it's Leader or TSKNF etc.

But my view is that even if squats hold their own in assault and firefight it's shooting things with big "BOOOM" that is their forte. Being stubborn is just a side effect of being few and having to be it to survive.

And that tells at least me that it's their ability to keep going even if being shot at that is their stubborn.

Apart from that I really (REALLY!) appreciate all that's being written. How you describe what you did to come up with your various answers is VERY instructive. Thanks!

_________________
It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Top

epilgrim

Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:57 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:28 pm
Posts: 362

Erik M,

Have you played SM, Epic 40,000 or Net Epic? If so have you played Squats before? And have you been playing EA for very long?
Lastly, have you played any of Jaldon's lists or the Demiurg? If so what did you experience?

I am not trying to put you on the defensive, but it helps to understand what each others backgrounds are when considering design concepts and the framework of each army list and what they can support.

The formation sizes, the trooper stats and the weaponry all have to be considered before adding special rules. Add in that the list should play differently than the existing races and it is a real challenge to not duplicate them while keeping the squats playable and interesting.

Many of the choices made on the existing lists were based on the framework provided by the previous editions, especially Space Marine. As noted earlier both Jaldon and myself chose a way of illustrating Stubborn without borrowing a mechanic specific to another race.

I have already listed my reservations about allowing multiple leaders in small formations, and I don't think the formations should be made large enough to support multiple Leaders because the stats for a basic Squat would be cost prohibitive point-wise.

TSKNF, IMO is the opposite side of the coin and keeps very small, powerful unit going. A larger formation, even with weaker stats would become extremely effective if they cannot be suppressed by the initial BM.

Regardless any new means of applying Stubborn will need playtesting to establish its validity.

What do you think would work best as a specific rule?

_________________
Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

Top

Erik M

Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:29 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:41 pm
Posts: 1480
Location: Gothenburg,Sweden

To be honest I'm coming back to Epic after lots of years without playing.
That said I'm fairly well played with various games and systems.

What happened when I came back and got my squats back out was that there wasn't a common work for them to adhere to.
The feeling I got when looking at the Thorgrimm list was that they were way overpowered. And it was something fundamentally wrong with the demiurg list.

I find no problem making squats expencive etc. I'm more concerned of keeping them on par with atleast my feeling of them from back in the days when I played them in both 40k and Epic.

This lead me to trying to get three areas working right before getting any further. And what better way than opening a few cans o'worms?

Well, seriously, the words written on this has been very helpfull indeed. And apparently also backwards.

So the squats renowned abilites at morale, assault and firefight is to be looked at first. Up close and personal like and such is fairly easy to solve. The only issue is how to handle save, if it's to be 5+ or 6+ (or maybe 6+ w/re-roll?!)

Their WE and such is a very minor job actually. Not a small one, but it's more like getting the numbers down and the cost up kind of job.

_________________
It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Top

epilgrim

Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:04 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:28 pm
Posts: 362

When you say fundamentally wrong, I assume you mean the fiction. (smiles and knowing winks intended).

If that is the case,
I would request that you try to get past the fluff and play the list once or twice and tell me what you think then. A lot of work went into establishing the list and I would hate to are you pass on it because of the fiction alone.

If by wrong, there is something in the stats or list that is messed up I am more than willing to discuss it with anyone.

It's good to know you have a starting point that includes epic, it will serve you well once you get to play regularly again.

_________________
Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

Top

jaldon454

Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:57 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:38 am
Posts: 303
Location: Utah, Texas, or some Pacific Island

What happened when I came back and got my squats back out was that there wasn't a common work for them to adhere to.
The feeling I got when looking at the Thorgrimm list was that they were way overpowered. And it was something fundamentally wrong with the demiurg list.

While epilgrim and I may have our differences as to design styles and preferences I do have a good amount of respect both for his opinions and the work he has done. You may, or may not, know this but Thurgrimm's Stronghold and the Demuirg lists have both been around for a long time now and have been picked apart.

Basically there are a lot of 'between the lines" effects that don't appear on the stat lines, in the way an army is put together, and the special rules. So to say the Army "looks" overpowered without actually playing the list it is difficult to draw any conclusions on whether it is or isn't.

As we have played Thurgrimm's Stronghold to death one thing I can say is it does have weaknesses that opponents can, and do, exploit. If anything the list would be stronger if left up to my Squat friends in my playing group, as they think it is too weak (But then again they would say that :confuse:

)

I find no problem making squats expencive etc. I'm more concerned of keeping them on par with atleast my feeling of them from back in the days when I played them in both 40k and Epic.

While we did start out that way it was decided by all involved to break away from the background a bit to bring it in line with what was being done to the other army lists. I agree with epilgrim it would be sad indeed if you decided NOT to use them because the fluff didn't fit the old background anymore (And I mean both the Demiur and Thurgrimm's)

Just for reference, The work on Thurgrimm's Stronghold started before the release of Epic-Armageddon, which was 2003, and wasn't posted here until two years ago. That would be three years of playtesting and design. So it wasn't just slapped together and posted on the boards.

Epilgrims work on the Demiurg started before my company went nutz and started sending me all over the Pacific, so his body of work is at least three years old.

Once again it would be a shame if you decided to dismiss both bodies of work based upon a reading of them rather then actually using them in a game.

Is "Building and Using Epic-A Armies" still available somewhere? If it is I would respectfully recommend you read it Erik as it will give you a very good grounding on some of the subtler aspects of Epic-A.

To be honest I'm coming back to Epic after lots of years without playing.
That said I'm fairly well played with various games and systems.

And like all game systems it is designed to be different while having vague similarities. "Flames of War" uses the same basic combat system used in both "Command Decision" and Mr. Hendriks "1944", but none of the three games plays anywhere near the same. (In fact that same system was first introduced by Donald Featherstone in his book "Wargames" in what the 1950s)

Epic-A, Epic40k, and Titan Legions, all are based upon the same 'system' (WH40k) but not one of them plays like the other.

But as epilgrim said, and I agree with him, it is good you have a founding in playing similar games in the system.

If that is the case,
I would request that you try to get past the fluff and play the list once or twice and tell me what you think then. A lot of work went into establishing the list and I would hate to are you pass on it because of the fiction alone.

I second epilgrims words, dust off those minis, put some armies together using both lists, and get down to rolling some dice. A lot of time, effort, and work have gone into both lists and I am positive you'll enjoy using them despite your apprehension.

Please do the above, if anything we do want work to be done to improve the lists, as I have stated before I am more then willing to do so AND help the process along even if it results in major changes to the work we have already done on the Squats. So we would love to have you join the party

Jaldon

_________________
I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC

Top

Moscovian

Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:55 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA

I was talking with ePilgrim this weekend and -although I love the Demiurg list I can understand some of what Erik is saying.

Fluff - I thought the fluff on the Demiurg was well written. But once GW confirmed that the Demiurg were most certainly not the Squats by another name I encouraged ePilgrim to re-write it. It wouldn't take much effort as we're just talking about a name. The background itself still holds well.

Inspiring vs. Leader. Keep in mind I've played against the Demiurg probably more than anyone else on the planet. I find the list well balanced. BUT, after reading Erik's comments I tend to agree that thematically Inspiring doesn't capture the stubborn feel as well as something else would: the Leader function most notably.

If I had my druthers I would literally swap the function out and make all formations given an inate Leader ability (like a Spirit Stone in a sense). To me, that feels more stubborn overall. No matter how much fire they take, they shrug it off and come back again. Only after breaking (losing organization) does their stubbornness not pay off.

Inspiring just helps them in assaults, which is limited in some capacity and overpowering in others. Just going over a lot of games in my head, I would dare say it would make the list better.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Top

Erik M

Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:04 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:41 pm
Posts: 1480
Location: Gothenburg,Sweden

*phew* Thanks Moscovian. I was beginning to feel as trampling people...

Each of us are known in our own small little group, and coming into a new group and "having high n'mighty ideas" isn't usually a good way to make friends...

_________________
It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Top

Moscovian

Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:09 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA

You aren't going to make enemies with this group, but you are right that new ideas aren't always accepted readily, especially on older lists.

This is why we have a forum - if it wasn't for you bringing it up I would have never second guessed the inspiring thing. I certainly think it is worth playtesting the Demiurg/Squat list with Leader in place of Inspiring.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Top

Erik M

Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:36 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:41 pm
Posts: 1480
Location: Gothenburg,Sweden

It's funny you know, I would not be as open to looking at my work with such an open mind. I guess that goes a long way to explain why I like to play with my (stubborn!) squats...

Anyhow, once again, it feel nice to get such a positive respons on such a possibly snotty start.

Now I'll go see to it that we get an active group playing here in Sweden and Gothenburg too.

_________________
It would be nice to get lightspeed,
so far we can only reach slight speed.- Erik M
092b85658e746a91d343e53509d357744e56f641

Top

epilgrim

Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:13 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:28 pm
Posts: 362

Moscovian and I were just debating the use of Leader as an organic ability. While I understand how this might properly illustrate Stubborn, I feel that it will potentially create another "spirit stones" problem that will require an overhaul of the punts costs per formation.

An organic Leader is considerably more useful than an organic Inspiring ability based on all the games I played against his Eldar.

I will go back through the thread and pull together the various possibilities and try to capture them in potential definitions for Stubborn.

At that point each can be discussed and if viable, playtested.

_________________
Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

Top

zombocom

Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:07 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569

I like the idea of being able to take armour saves against crumbling wounds.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Top

Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:29 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 11149
Location: Canton, CT, USA

(zombocom @ Jun. 02 2008,15:07)

QUOTE

I like the idea of being able to take armour saves against crumbling wounds.

Me too.

I haven't play-tested it, but I also like the idea of +1 to the resolution roll or allowing an extra D6.

_________________
"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

Top

zombocom

Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:42 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569

Aye, 3d6 picking the highest sounds pretty neat for them too.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Top

epilgrim

Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:37 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:28 pm
Posts: 362

(zombocom @ Jun. 02 2008,20:07)

QUOTE

I like the idea of being able to take armour saves against crumbling wounds.

I don't understand the term crumbling wounds, can you please explain it to me?

_________________
Squat/Demiurg Army Co-Champion (in cahoots with Jaldon)

Top

Print view

Previous topic | Next topic

Page 3 of 4

[ 50 posts ]

Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:

Squats revisited, Stubborn

Who is online