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Squats revisited, part I
epilgrim
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:44 am 
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Hi,

Regardless of the fictional elements I wrote for the Demiurg Consortium list you might want to go over the stats.

The list incorporates all of the units ever produced for the Squats (although they are named differently at times) and the list was tested a lot with help from many other Epic players.

A number of issues you are discussing here went though similar threads and a lot of design concepts were proved or discarded.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:49 pm 
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(fredmans @ May 30 2008,10:53)
QUOTE
A 5+ save is twice as good as a 6+ save and I do not think squats are double as tough as say orks.

This isn't accurate.  6+ to 5+ save is nowhere near twice as tough.

6+ save averages .833 kills per hit.
5+ save averages .667 kills per hit.

That's only +25% more firepower required per kill - not insubstantial, but definitely not the same as +100% (double).

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jaldon454
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:52 pm 
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I've found that giving the formation Rhinos really stops them breaking under heavy fire, and allows you to get into base contact for a cover save.  Why were Rhinos missing from the consolidated Squat lists?


As a group, at the time, we wanted to seperate the Squats from the Imperium so changed all of the equipment names. So the Rhinos weren't really dropped, just given a new name. From there we went a bit further :O

By the way, Jaldon, I think that it is great that you care to help us, even if we would end up with three different "house lists".

Squats aren't official and despite heavy lobbying by us a long time ago with GW and JJ we couldn't breath life into them again. Up until now the only group working on them were with the list presented by us, tho some did dislike them and alone wrote their own with no playtesting or desire to do any.

This is the first outside project I've seen here, and I admit we were biased in our work as to direction/design, and would like to see more work done on the list. Helping that along could (no insult intended in this remark at all) end up in being a better design. If so then I would be happy to merge/delete the two works into a single body so we don't end up with three lists. (Sort of like looking back so we can move ahead with a clearer direction)

Trust me  :;):  my fellow Squats in my local gaming group wouldn't mind either.

Last I would have to be a real stick in the mud to believe that the list we created is the best or the only reasonable view of the Squats possible.

Besides I really love the little stunties :cool:

Jaldon :p

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Erik M
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:03 pm 
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Thanks Jaldon. I hope I can be as grand...  :blush:

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Erik M
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:07 pm 
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(nealhunt @ May 30 2008,14:49)
QUOTE

(fredmans @ May 30 2008,10:53)
QUOTE
A 5+ save is twice as good as a 6+ save and I do not think squats are double as tough as say orks.

This isn't accurate.  6+ to 5+ save is nowhere near twice as tough.
6+ save averages .833 kills per hit.
5+ save averages .667 kills per hit.
That's only +25% more firepower required per kill - not insubstantial, but definitely not the same as +100% (double).

That depends on how you look at it Neal.
5+ save twice as many times as 6+.
That's sort of what the function is, right?  :laugh:
It's not "reducing a kill", it's "saving a life".

Looking at it from the "reduce a kill" angle you're right thou.  :p

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:31 pm 
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Well, by that reasoning you can go from no save to 6+ and that must be infinitely tougher, then, right?  

"Oh, no!  Orks are infinitely tougher than IG infantry!"

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Erik M
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:40 pm 
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YuP! :D

So, have we come up with a feeling here yet?

Save 5+ and weaker in everything else VS Save 6+ and rather crafty fellas.

Correct?

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epilgrim
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:50 pm 
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Jaldon,

It's good to see you back on the forum. Regardless of some our differences in terms of approach to the army lists, I agree that trying to consolidate all of the existing efforts and any new thoughts will be of great benefit to everyone who wants to play the Squats in EA.

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jaldon454
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 2:05 am 
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Regardless of some our differences in terms of approach to the army lists,


Wouldn't be much of a design process if we all always agreed with each other.

Besides most of my gaming buddies here were in on the original Squat lists, and you think we had differences in terms of approach :O

It's good to see you back on the forum.

Thanks, really :blush:

I agree that trying to consolidate all of the existing efforts and any new thoughts will be of great benefit to everyone who wants to play the Squats in EA.

Don't take this the wrong way epilgrim but I think you should continue to do work on the Demiurg list, for two reasons.

(1) BFG has Demuirg in it and it would be nice if they had some ground pounders.

(2) I think it would be good to have both a separate Demiurg and Squat list so that both factions would be happy and not feel like they got short changed.

That said doing cross work with both lists wouldn't be a bad idea as they both have similar backgrounds. The difference could be easily fit into one or the other lists to keep them separate. This could be more easily done with the Demiurg list as there is no background armies in GW history to draw from, while the Squats are already fixed in a lot of stunties minds already.

And we all know what long memories Squats have don't we :confuse:

So, have we come up with a feeling here yet?

Well just for my two cents worth Arm 5+ CC 5+ FF 6+ (As everyone rolls their eyes at Jaldon's post :D )

Jaldon :p

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vanvlak
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 7:29 am 
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I'm curious now - fluffwise, would the Demiurg/Squat be best served by being represented as having common ancestry (and at some point a split into two distinct races/societies) or as being completely separate - as the Squats have the high gravity world background, it could be explained as a similar evolutionary result in (for example) opposite ends of the galaxy. Would be interesting to see a battle between the two!
I guess this should go in the fluff section, though...

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epilgrim
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 7:48 am 
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Don't take this the wrong way epilgrim but I think you should continue to do work on the Demiurg list, for two reasons.


Not at all, I won't give up on keeping faith with the Demiurg List as it is a seperate historical track for the Squats, I am as equally stubborn as any other stunty  :D

However, I do think that we should all put our heads together with regards to the design of the units. Having conflicting stats for a unit could be confusing or even off putting for players, especially if two stunty fans square off units using different lists. the order of battle may differ, but the units should be nearly the same.

when you were obligated elsewhere, only a few players and myself expressed any interest in the little guys and I concluded development on v2.2 about 18 months ago with not much in the way of gameplay disputes.

this latest flurry of interest and your return is refreshing.

my stats for the basic trooper was Ar 5+ CC 5+ FF 5+. Keep in mind that my values and combat effectiveness were plotted with smaller formations that end up with higher point costs per stand as well as factoring in the use of Inspiring for the formation.

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epilgrim
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 7:59 am 
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(vanvlak @ May 31 2008,07:29)
QUOTE
I'm curious now - fluffwise, would the Demiurg/Squat be best served by being represented as having common ancestry (and at some point a split into two distinct races/societies) or as being completely separate - as the Squats have the high gravity world background, it could be explained as a similar evolutionary result in (for example) opposite ends of the galaxy. Would be interesting to see a battle between the two!
I guess this should go in the fluff section, though...

it's simple enough, without going into the details, the Demiurg (as fashioned by myself, not GW) represent a Mercantile/Mercenary aspect of Squat society. Basically nomadic spaceborn strongholds.

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Erik M
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:07 pm 
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I think that squats can coexist with their less fortunate brethren the demiurg. Just like dwarfs (usually can) coexist with their less fortunate brethren the gnomes...  :alien:

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epilgrim
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:41 pm 
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(Erik M @ Jun. 01 2008,17:07)
QUOTE
I think that squats can coexist with their less fortunate brethren the demiurg. Just like dwarfs (usually can) coexist with their less fortunate brethren the gnomes... ?:alien:

Less fortunate? Please explain. (Insert confused emoticon)

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Erik M
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:14 pm 
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Gah! It was a joke epilgrim.

I think it's a great work done on that list. Even if I don't like it, it's still a great job done. :cool:

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