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Barrage and forests
gaskran
 Post subject: Barrage and forests
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:30 pm 
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Another technical question, how do you guys handle artillery aiming at units that are hidden in forest terrain (ie more than 1 cm in)? Does the barrage scatter as when shooting indirect fire, since the artillery unit does not have LOS, or do you handle it another way?

The thing is that when in woods, it?s impossible to spot the other unit if not in close combat range. Then you cannot call in the barrage either since the unit has to fight it out in CC anyway (cold blooded races being an exception).

This has implications for vehicles hidden under the foliage since they can shoot indirectly but in a sense cannot be shot at. Even with artillery.
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zap123
 Post subject: Barrage and forests
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:10 am 
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They can't be targetted as they can't be spotted.  If you are talking about artillery, if you want them you need to get in and winkle them out with close combat.

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primarch
 Post subject: Barrage and forests
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:28 am 
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(gaskran @ May 21 2008,17:30)
QUOTE
Another technical question, how do you guys handle artillery aiming at units that are hidden in forest terrain (ie more than 1 cm in)? Does the barrage scatter as when shooting indirect fire, since the artillery unit does not have LOS, or do you handle it another way?

The thing is that when in woods, it?s impossible to spot the other unit if not in close combat range. Then you cannot call in the barrage either since the unit has to fight it out in CC anyway (cold blooded races being an exception).

This has implications for vehicles hidden under the foliage since they can shoot indirectly but in a sense cannot be shot at. Even with artillery.


Hi!

I think I'll close this loophole with the FO unit adding to its description that a FO and ONLY a FO can place artillery shots into places with no direct LOS (using orbital satellites/aircraft/spaceships), but in this case the communicatins roll is on a 5+ not the lower 3+ for direct LOS.

Simple and effective.

Primarch




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zap123
 Post subject: Barrage and forests
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:30 am 
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The FO only has to make a communication roll for off-board artillery, so you'll probably have to make this an additional rule...i.e.

"Forward Observers may also direct on table artillery to fire at a grid reference.  To do so the FO has to make a communications roll on a 5+.  IF successful the template may be placed anywhere on the table without the need for LoS (but still observing targetting restrictions like HQ).  The template scatters the normal 2D6."

or something like that.

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gaskran
 Post subject: Barrage and forests
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 10:21 pm 
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Sounds excellent! I think this will be smooth and easy and put a nice fluff frame to it.
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primarch
 Post subject: Barrage and forests
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 11:26 pm 
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(zap123 @ May 26 2008,21:30)
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The FO only has to make a communication roll for off-board artillery, so you'll probably have to make this an additional rule...i.e.

"Forward Observers may also direct on table artillery to fire at a grid reference.  To do so the FO has to make a communications roll on a 5+.  IF successful the template may be placed anywhere on the table without the need for LoS (but still observing targetting restrictions like HQ).  The template scatters the normal 2D6."

or something like that.

Hi!

Good. I'll do that.

Primarch

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duz.holger
 Post subject: Barrage and forests
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:12 pm 
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a noter tree question normally you get cover from trees but i think that barrage weapons should be excepted from that (explosives + trees= enormous amount of shrapnel)

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primarch
 Post subject: Barrage and forests
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:46 am 
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(duz.holger @ May 29 2008,12:12)
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a noter tree question normally you get cover from trees but i think that barrage weapons should be excepted from that (explosives + trees= enormous amount of shrapnel)

Hi!

The cover is only a -1 modifier. I'd be careful taking away the cover, since the place should be good to hide, but not perfect.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Barrage and forests
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:58 am 
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Ironically not against barrages :)

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Pettan
 Post subject: Barrage and forests
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:27 pm 
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I guess the "cover" also makes it harder to spot the troops in the woods and therefore you dont really know where to drop the bomb to get everyone in the blast area..
And...

Would you rather be standing on a prairie with bombs dropping or in a thick wood with trees, stones & crevases everywhere...

//Peter

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duz.holger
 Post subject: Barrage and forests
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:45 am 
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actually i would prefer open land there i can dig a fox hole and don't need to worry about  flying tree shrapnel

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Warhead
 Post subject: Barrage and forests
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:21 am 
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Hi guys, I've been mulling this one over since reading it and have managed to put my thoughts into some sort of order. So here's my tupence-worth...

They can't be targeted as they can't be spotted.  If you are talking about artillery, if you want them you need to get in and winkle them out with close combat.


All though the rule that if a unit is out of LOS it can't be targeted isn't perfect. It is fairer and more workable than other possible options (that I can think of, anyway) as a game mechanic.

(explosives + trees= enormous amount of shrapnel)

It's a very good and true point but I think if we're quoting from reality you have to keep in mind scale. The above example is correct but when measured to scale I believe the increase is negligible enough to be ignored. (You could always increase Barrage Strikes in Woods by +1BP - for Heavy Artillery only - per template but why bother)

This has implications for vehicles hidden under the foliage since they can shoot indirectly but in a sense cannot be shot at. Even with artillery

I think this subtle point went unanswered. Unless I read it wrong... However, I believe that you shouldn't be allowed to fire Heavy Artillery units (unlike infantry support platforms - Thudd Guns etc) within woods due to the likelihood of the tree canopy above detonating the outgoing shells. Most heavy artillery would set up in clearings for this simple reason. (Again it's another unwanted complication that could just be ignored.)

I like the idea of the FO being capable of calling in artillery strikes on Terrain features. From examples throughout modern warfare it is common for prominent terrain features like tall buildings etc to attract more fire than it's protection affords. However much I try to come up with alternatives I still can't see a way of working this into the system without unwelcome complication.

So I find my way back to where I started from with the  conclusion - Why change a Core Rule (not a stat or unit description) when the original rule works?..

But, if anyone cares to reply with their own fix to this problem then I'll read it with an open or vacant mind.  :)

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Barrage and forests
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:20 am 
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(Warhead @ Jun. 15 2008,01:21)
QUOTE
(explosives + trees= enormous amount of shrapnel)


It's a very good and true point but I think if we're quoting from reality you have to keep in mind scale. The above example is correct but when measured to scale I believe the increase is negligible enough to be ignored. (You could always increase Barrage Strikes in Woods by +1BP - for Heavy Artillery only - per template but why bother)

Lots of other systems give the opposite of cover for infantry in woods for this reason. It really is nasty, indeed several films I think portray it quite well.


However, I believe that you shouldn't be allowed to fire Heavy Artillery units (unlike infantry support platforms - Thudd Guns etc) within woods due to the likelihood of the tree canopy above detonating the outgoing shells. Most heavy artillery would set up in clearings for this simple reason.

Would depend on the woods really, small clearings are easy enough to find in lightish woods, or can be made with the mimimum of fuss.

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Warhead
 Post subject: Barrage and forests
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:56 am 
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Hi Chris,

Not saying it couldn't be done and I am agreeing that there are plenty of examples that it should be done. Just asking how?.. and should we bother or should we continue as is? Can it be worked into this game system without fuss?..

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zap123
 Post subject: Barrage and forests
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:45 am 
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I'd think if anything armour and powered infantry would probably benefit, and it would likely be no net gain or loss for dug in troops.  I can't see that it is a big enough deal to bother with.

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