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Tournament List Mods
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:53 pm 
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Siegemasters seem to have some problems?

Quite aside from that, if there are no lists which are causing major problems, then we won't have to bug Jervis to change them. :)




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Steve54
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:59 pm 
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From what Chris has said Joe and Nathan could have beaten him. Also I think Siegemasters enjoyed the shock value of a new army which in the past has benefited eldar, LatD and BL when they first started appearing at tourneys.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:15 pm 
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Black Legion modifications

Army list changes:
  • Increase Obliterators to 85 points each
  • Add the Assault Company to the Chaos Titan Legion War Engine box
  • Ravager titan reduced to 625 points
  • Feral titan increased to 325 points
  • Raptors increased to 40 points each
Unit changes:
  • Daemon Prince: Remove Titan Killer (1) from both weapons
  • Reduce Greater Daemons to 7 summoning points
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alansa
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:26 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ May 30 2008,16:53)
QUOTE
Siegemasters seem to have some problems?

Quite aside from that, if there are no lists which are causing major problems, then we won't have to bug Jervis to change them. :)

That's good  :D In that case tournament variants, the 'b's are needed only for issues other than balance - such as fixing unpopular units.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:53 pm 
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And the point is that if we deem these "minimalist" changes are fundemantally needed for balance, and that they are tested and proven then this is what we really ought to put to JJ to approve.

As for the recent success of the Siegies - Chris has constantly said they are overpowered for something like 2 years. Hardly a "new" list or a new problem. By TRC's own admission, the fact that they could have been beaten was more due to his playing than the list; which should demonstrate his point even more forceably that they are a bit overpowered in their current form.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:57 pm 
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I stick with the assertion that they are a 'new' list - In 3 years I think there has been one previous Siege army.

Joe definitely thought he could have won - and I imagine it might have been different if Nathan hdn't forgotten about IC

If that list continues to dominate then fair enough.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:24 pm 
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Indeed, I think Rug told me that Chris had never won a tournament before this one.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:50 pm 
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I've taken Siegers twice before at the CC. First year they were beaten one time out of 5 by an even more broken Tau list (I came second). 2nd time I lost 1 game out of 5 (against Tim who had been planning against my quite public army list for some time! - and of course it didn't help I deployed my bts with my arty!). Note I wasn't using a particularly evil list. 3rd time I won every game.

And I'm simply not that good at Epic - look at my non sieger results (with Guard and marines). I did play somewhat poorly with the army at the CC but I simply had so many activations and ways to put blast markers on the enemy I muddled through my mistakes.

Bill I believe brought siegers one year to a comp, but I don't know what the list was or how it did.

Yes I can beat siegers and have probably the best anti sieger record - but I've played almost a hundred games with or against them now and if the siegers have a streak of luck at the start, or something goes a bit wrong for me its all over. Playing against them is somewhat unforgiving.

If no one wants to make any changes fair enough - but first I suggest you play me :)

As to Chaos - a feral heavy army should beat me every time as it should go first and be able to completely negate my defences. Indeed I have only ever managed to wipe Siegers out once - and that was with a 3 feral 2 decimator chaos army.




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Ginger
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:58 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ May 30 2008,19:54)
QUOTE
If no one wants to make any changes fair enough - but first I suggest you play me :)

As to Chaos - a feral heavy army should beat me every time as it should go first and be able to completely negate my defences. Indeed I have only ever managed to wipe Siegers out once - and that was with a 3 feral 2 decimator chaos army.

Proving the power of these units, (probably because of the MW, IC combination which is the ideal counter-measure to the trenches).

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:08 pm 
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I only played once against Siegmasters. I fielded ground based SpaceMarines and deployed so that i dienied a complete table half. I wiped out the complete left flank of the siegers in turn 2. After this my opponent throwed the towel.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:09 pm 
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Fair enough - I'll cede to your experience with Seigemasters. My point was that one tournament isn't enough to judge them broken, but I've no problem with your changes as they are obviously the result of much playtesting.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:22 pm 
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Revised list on page one.

So 3 changes for the steel legion, and another if you include the 3bp bomber change. That's two formations now worth it (Bombers and a signature unit the Baneblade) and one abuse stopped (overwatching Deathstrikes).

Minimal enough? :)

So when do we get the results Neal?




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Steve54
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 2:59 pm 
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Following TRC's list I have updated the relevant LatD changes

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:44 pm 
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Biel-Tan/Eldar modifications

Army list changes:
  • Guardian Warhost ? add 2-3 Wraithguard +50 points each
(Just as an explanation for this, currently, you only get *two* stands of Wraithguard in an Eldar Infantry box, this option allows a new player to field what he/she has, without having to buy another box of infantry.)

Unit changes:
  • Fire Prisms ? Prism Cannon, 60cm, AP4+/AT2+, Lance
  • Jetbikes ? Armour 5+
  • Warp Spiders ? lose scouts
  • Howling Banshees - CC2+
  • Wave Serpents ? add Heavy Weapon Platform to transport options


I'd really like to include the Swords of Vaul Troupe in here as well, but is that to controversial?




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