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Squats revisited, Stubborn
Erik M
 Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:09 pm 
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So, time to split things a bit.

I think all can agree on squats being of a stubborn and unyielding nature, right?

The present variant of this is Inspiring.
Which would make them all but unbeatable in a fire fight, right? +1 per surviving stand...

...but is it "stubborn"?

If we are to not add a new variant, then we got Disposable, Fearless, Inspiring and Leaders.
All are viable, some need some heavy pondering and squizing... But in one way or another they give the effect that it's hard to break a squat.

Disposable - that they are not afraid of dying.
Fearless - but squats aren't stoopid.
Inspiring - this is only in an assault.
Leaders - if they stop and think they return to battle.




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Curis
 Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:31 pm 
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I'd like to throw in a new suggestion that they ignore the -1 penalty for enemy within 30cm when rallying.

Which list is the latest Death Guard list?

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Erik M
 Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:47 pm 
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(Hena @ May 30 2008,12:10)
QUOTE
Note that it's +1 for the entire formation, not per stand.

Edit: Also check the latest Death Guard list for alternative thingy.

1:1 Units
"....or several infantry models mounted together..."
2.1.6 Inspiring
"Each inspiring unit... ... ...adds +1 to..."

So if five survives, then 5 is added.

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Erik M
 Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:48 pm 
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Adding special rules don't work Curis. We have to find ways within what's already there. At least that's what I think is the viable way.




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epilgrim
 Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:49 pm 
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here is what was developed and works well in the Demiurg list, you're welcome to make use of it. In EA the rule reflects the racial characteristics of stunties no matter what you call them.


Stubborn
All Demiurg are noted for their intractable nature. To represent this characteristic all Demiurg formations, except Autonom Cadres, are considered to be Inspiring and always add a +1 during each round of assault resolution. Note: A formation with a Merchant Prince will have a +2 modifier (+1 for the formation?s Stubborn attribute and +1 for the Merchant Prince?s character profile).

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Erik M
 Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:58 pm 
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Yes, it has been read and looked at. That too...  :;):

Personally I prefer the Leader ability. Which would mean that they practically always recover.

Hm... Special rules... Right Curis, everyone has them. And funilly enough  it's usually about morale... So how does it look for the squats then? Something like the "And they shall..."  perhaps?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:02 pm 
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Could copy Orks - Heathguard (nobz) get leader?
Or marines and give them ATSKNF?
Then again I like something relating to assaults. The 3 dice instead of two was one. Another could be can choose to fight another round of combat instead of rolling for resolution?

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Erik M
 Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:23 pm 
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Yes. Problem is that the Demiurg refers back to the basic inspiring and then say it's just +1 for the hole formation, where the rules state it's +1 per unit.

So before this goes any further it has to be cleared up if 2.1 is per unit or per formation where it stands "per" or "each" etc.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:27 pm 
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Stylistically, I've always thought of Squats as having two "modes" of combat - stand back and shoot the snot out of anything that moves, or rush in with axes.  That means good ranged fire and good CC, but not unusually strong FF.

I would suggest not using the assault mod bonus.  A built-in Inspiring automatically biases towards assault.  More importantly, high mods outside of kills bias towards clipping style assaults because if your non-combat mods are higher, jumping into combat only risks the possibility of combat overpowering your guaranteed mods.  That doesn't seem very Squat-like to me.

I think a high number of Leaders as TRC suggests would accomplish most of what you want.  Leader removes BMs which may help in assault, but it's most important for command and control and suppression, so Squats can adopt a "stand and deliver" style of play - like Squats.

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Erik M
 Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:32 pm 
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Apart from me being the one with Leader first (but who's counting, right? :p ) I do feel that way to.

"Ok fellas, that wasn't so bad after all, was it now?"
But at squat level, they are after all rather individualistic... Listening to themselves first.




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epilgrim
 Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:49 pm 
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Stubborn as a racial characteristic was drawn up to differentiate the Demiurg from Space Marines (TSKNF) and Orks (Mob Rule) while still preserving the idea of them being unwilling to concede.

I was unhappy with Jaldon's earlier version of Stubborn when during several playtests Stubborn made successful Squat rally and resolution rolls almost a given.

Allowing them more leaders just makes them more like Orks but in smaller formations, at that point what makes play Squats differently?

Inpiring as used in The Demiurg list offers only a +1 (or at best a +2 with the Merchant Prince) regardless of the number of formations involved in the assault. In playtest the rule does occasionally make the difference, but it is not an overwhelming advantage.




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epilgrim
 Post subject: Squats revisited, Stubborn
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:55 pm 
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(Erik M @ May 30 2008,13:23)
QUOTE
Yes. Problem is that the Demiurg refers back to the basic inspiring and then say it's just +1 for the hole formation, where the rules state it's +1 per unit.

So before this goes any further it has to be cleared up if 2.1 is per unit or per formation where it stands "per" or "each" etc.

Erik M,

Stubborn is a modification of Inspiring.

Inspiring is a unit special ability.

Stubborn is a formation special ability that uses the Inspiring as it's basis.

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