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Squats revisited, part I
Erik M
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:55 am 
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Thank you Jaldon. No worry about muddying the waters... Us squats are used to the tepid water of our mines...  :p

Even if I would like to see the crazy bitz comeback to the orks (like Tractor Cannon and Shokk Attack Gun) I'm quite happy to keep other things as streamlined as possible. Thus a move of the usual is fine with me.

As for save I'd rather see 6+ and Stubborn than 5+ and not.
And mixing ML and AC and skip the HB is a thing to be pondered really hard. I feel it has to adopt well to what models comes with five (or ten) sprues too. Alterrnativly how squats where based for Epic II.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:58 am 
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So what weapons did Heathguard carry? I know the exo armour guys just had a bolter, but the heathguard?

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fredmans
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:11 pm 
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Hello everybody. I am new to this forum and an old Rogue Trader and Space Marine player who has recently emerged into the wonderful world of E:A. I was exhilarated when I found this thread as I am also toying with ideas to represent the Squats in this new setting, and would be happy to contribute with feedback and thoughts. As to real_chris's question, the model looks like it is carrying a weird missile launcher and a plasma pistol, but if I remember correctly they had the option of combi-weapons in Rogue Trader.

As to the save discussion, I have tried out the Consolidated Squat list and find a 5+ Armour save a little boring, even if it does represent their toughness and mesh(?) armour. A 5+ save reduces the need for tactical options, like taking cover or going for overwatch and just made them plain hard to kill. I am all for a 6+ save.

Great to see so much love for the squats, and for Erik M, I am currently trying out a slightly more "robotic" rule which is not complicated, but still mimics the programming part.

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Erik M
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:34 pm 
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Lovely! :D

Yes, a save at 5+ feel no fun. I would much prefer something more scottish. Ie a 6+ save and Stubborn.

Warriors are now given an AC and the Thunderers 1 ML and 3 AC. I think it is.
There's quite a lot to think of here... Some sort of not leaving them out in the open with no AT and a need for Land Raiders or lots and lots of of AP/AT that wont give to much in FF. Ie ML + 3 HB would give like an FF of 3+. And we don't want that, do we? ML and 3 AC on the other hand gives many bad AT but an FF of 4+ as it's best.

And if you Fredmans care to hunker down and see what can be done to the robots,that just lovely!

As for Heartguard and Lord... I've not started on them yet.




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jaldon454
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:56 pm 
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So what weapons did Heathguard carry? I know the exo armour guys just had a bolter, but the heathguard?


Missile Launchers, Plasma Weapons, and Lascannons are on the list of toys. All Imperial Standard, a lot of the old 40k is based on the Imperial Standard for weapons, don't blame me :blush:

Yes, a save at 5+ feel no fun. I would much prefer something more scottish. Ie a 6+ save and Stubborn.

:D  I like this comment, really!

We did try 6+ and Stubborn and didn't like it. One thing to note in all my comments here I am NOT trying to discourage anybody else doing a Squat List, or even modifying the present Squat list. In fact just the opposite.

However I will add comments concerning the work we did and the steps we took to try and help all over the pitfalls we already tripped over. So please don't anyone take my comments as harsh or critical.

And of course give all and any information I have on hand concerning the Squats to help the process.

There's quite a lot to think of here... Some sort of not leaving them out in the open with no AT and a need for Land Raiders or lots and lots of of AP/AT that wont give to much in FF. Ie ML + 3 HB would give like an FF of 3+. And we don't want that, do we? ML and 3 AC on the other hand gives many bad AT but an FF of 4+ as it's best.

At one time our Squat Warriors had just Heavy Bolters, used another name for them, so just AP5+. This was under the theory that they could get their AT firepower from upgrades plugged into the Warrior Brotherhoods (Thudd Guns, Tarantulas, etc...) It was tossed around for a bit, fought a number of games, then discarded as not fitting the fluff for the Squats all that well.

Just take a standard Warrior Brotherhood, make them all Armor 6+, AP 5+, and allow upgrades for Tarantula, Thudd Gun, etc.. then give it a go. Try to keep the upgade possibilities at or below 50% of the starting strength of the Brotherhood. I think at the time we used FF5+, not sure right now, it might have been 6+.

Jaldon :p

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Erik M
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:07 pm 
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Constructive critizism is always welcome. :O
And Shoel has kindly volounteered to play them for testing. :D

Why not Save 6+ & Stubborn?
Cost aspects aside; you say they were no fun?

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fredmans
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:12 pm 
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I would be very interested in comments, but this is what I am trying right now.

Robots
Light Vehicle
Move 15 cm
Armour 4+
CC 5+
FF 5+
Auto Cannon AP5+/AT6+
Power Fist CC MW +1 Attack
Fearless, Robotic

ROBOTIC

The interaction between squats and robots make robots differ from squats in the following ways:

Syntax error: Robots, essentially being computers, are unreliable and therefore have a Initiative rating of  3+. A failed Initiative test cannot be re-rolled by your Supreme Commander.

Robotic sentry: Robots are used to reduce squat losses. Therefore, a robotic maniple that loses an assault does not inflict blast markers on nearby units that are within 15 cm.

Selective programming: Robots act according to advanced parametric protocols. Actions that requires less input are easier to compute and more likely to succeed. Therefore, all robots in a formation carry one of the following two battle protocols (choose when purchased):

Assault Protocol: A formation of robots with assault protocol gets +1 to their initiative roll if they try an Engage action against the nearest enemy formation.

Sentry Protocol: A formation of robots with sentry protocol gets +1 to their initiative roll if they try a Sustained Fire action against the nearest enemy formation.


The idea is to achieve a certain mix of unreliability and add a flavour of the old battle programs. There are no major changes to the rules. A robot that tries to do exactly what it is programmed to do does it on 2+, otherwise it does it on 3+.

The robotic sentry rule represents the background given in the Consolidated Squats' rules, that robots are used to minimate squat losses. If lost, they have served their purpose. I do not know if this is justifiable or not, I am only trying it for flavour. I would not use this in a Robotics rule for an Imperial Guard army, where the nearby smashing up of armoured robots would be quite detrimental to company morale.

The Light Vehicle status is there to make them more vulnerable to terrain, which robots should avoid, (think of Robocop's adversary trying to go down the stairs) and the odd heavy bolter round damaging vital circuits etc.

/Fredmans

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:31 pm 
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Thats a lot of rules :)

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fredmans
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:54 pm 
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I agree. Being an old-timer Epic player, I plead guilty as charged. I was thinking of ditching the robotic sentry and no re-roll rules for simplicity, leaving it at the 2+/3+ initiative rule. Just wanted other players' opinions and input. Robotics would then be simplified to:

Initiative 3+

Assault robots: +1 to initiative test when trying to engage the nearest enemy formation

Sentry robots: +1 to initiative test when trying a sustained fire action against the nearest enemy formation

/Fredmans




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jaldon454
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:48 pm 
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Why not Save 6+ & Stubborn?
Cost aspects aside; you say they were no fun?


We didn't want to field the Warrior Brotherhoods in mass numbers (like Orks and IG) so at 6+ they just got cut down to no effect. Basically 'Stubborn' didn't help, and even fearless wouldn't have helped.

We then upped the Armor to 5+, for a bit.

Then we tried increasing their other stats (CC/FF/Weapon), and dropping back down to Armor 6+. Once again the other stats didn't matter as once again the Brotherhoods were being cut to ribbons.

Then it was back to Armor 5+

Consider that the Squat fields slow WEs that cannot hold ground, a Grand Batery and the like smaller versions, that also cannot hold ground, and a Biker Guild that while good in attack also cannot hold ground and you quickly come to the conclusion They need something that can hold ground. We elected the Warrior Brotherhoods and stuck with the Armor 5+ from then on.

Jaldon :p

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jaldon454
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:30 am 
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Squat Info from old TL and 40k

Formations TL

Grand Warlord
3xHearthgurard units w/Grand Warlord
(Hearthguard can be upgraded to have Exo-Armor)

Warrior Brotherhood
9xWarrior units, 1xWarlord unit w/Hearthguard bodyguards
(Hearthguard can be upgraded to have Exo-Armor)

Bezerker Brotherhood
5xBezerker units, 1xHearthguard unit
(Hearthguard can be upgraded to have Exo-Armor)

Thunderer Brotherhood
5xThunderer units, 1xHearthguard unit
(Hearthguard can be upgraded to have Exo-Armor)

Guild Trike Squadron
5xTrike units, 1xGuild Master on Trike
(Guild Master can have Exo-Armor)

Guild Bike Squadron
7xBike units, 1xGuild Master on Trike
(Hearthguard can be upgraded to have Exo-Armor)

Grand Battery
10xMole Mortars, 5xThudd Guns

Robot Squadron
5xRobots

Trantula Battery
5xTarantula

Rapier Battery
2xRapier units
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Individual units and Weapons

Warrior: One in five men are armed with Missile Launcher
             or Heavy Bolter rest have Lasguns

Bezerkers: Bolt Pistols, Power Axes, or Chainswords

Hearth Guard: Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher, Plasma Guns
                       Power Axe

Guild Bikers: Bolters

Guild Trikes: Multi-Melta

Guild Master: Lascannon

Rapier: Laser Destroyer (AA Gun)

Tarantula: Lascannon

Thudd Gun: IDF Barrage Weapon

Mole Mortar: IDF Barrage Weapon

Robots: Autocannon

Colossus: 8xBattle Cannon, 1xThunderer Cannon,
               16xBolters, 1xDoomsday Cannon, Missile Racks
                6xVoid Shields

Leviathin: 6xLascannons, 1xBattlecannon, 12xBolters,
                Doomsday Cannon, 4xVoid Shields

Land Train Engine: 4xBattle Cannon, 8xBolters,
                              Doomsday Cannon, 2xVoid Shields

Mortar Battle Car: Siege Mortar, 2xBolters, 1xVoid Shield

Dragon Battle Car: Flame Cannon, 2xBolters, 1xVoid Shield

Bomb Battle Car: Rad Bomb, 2xBolters, 1xVoid Shield

Bezerker Battle Car: 2xAutocannon, 2xBolters,
                                1xVoid Shield (Carries Bezerkers)

Iron Eagle: Battle Cannon, 2xAutocannon

Overlord: 6xBattle Cannon, 4xAutocannon, Melta Bombs,
               6xBolters

Goliath: Goliath Mega-Cannon

Hope this helps things along

Jaldon :p

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Erik M
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:47 am 
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Yes, I just went through the old E2 cards too.
Not sure about the "individual upgrades" thou, where did you find them?

Anyhow...
CODE
Bezerkers: Bolt Pistols, Power Axes, or Chainswords
Hearth Guard: Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher, Plasma Guns and  Power Axe
Power Axe, wouldn't that mean MW and Extra Attack for both?

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fredmans
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:36 am 
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(Erik M @ May 30 2008,08:47)
QUOTE
Anyhow...
CODE
Bezerkers: Bolt Pistols, Power Axes, or Chainswords
Hearth Guard: Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher, Plasma Guns and  Power Axe
Power Axe, wouldn't that mean MW and Extra Attack for both?

I guess that it should not be taken literally. There is a declared equivalency between power axe and chainsword, suggesting that the axe carried is of equal quality. Some carry swords, other axes. There used to be a lot of chain axes in a Khorne army for instance. Anyway, MW attacks for regular assault units seems way over the top. My suggestion is to change the reference to chain axe.

As for the save discussion, I admit that 5+ armour save is a good move for staying power, making them resilient when coming under fire. My own thoughts after playing the consolidated squat list is that it becomes a little too good in combination with the stubborn rules AND the Spartan rules. It is just plain hard to rack up kills against squats in assault, and then there is a third assault die to cope with. The difference between 5+ and 6+ is huge.

I can see the merits of a 5+ save, but would also propose a straight Rhino STC (in effect 5+ armour) and perhaps an upgraded bolter function (storm bolters?) to improve FF to 5+.

As for Stubborness, I have seen two alternatives. Jaldon's, which grants a third assault die, and Curis that grants an army-wide Inspiring rule. I think the third assault die is too good, (just think of RISK), and find the Inspiring rule too bland. In my opinion, the stubborness should reflect squat's willingness to fight to the last stand against impossible odds. Therefore, I propose a stubborn rule that states that Squats cannot be outnumbered OR have to be outnumbered 2:1 for a +1 and 3:1 for a +2.

In this way, Stubborness becomes specific to certain acts of stubborness and not just plain Close Combat Masters, like in NetEpic. It also reserves the Inspiring ability to other options, like Living Ancestors, or if background forbids it, how about Lore Masters or Guild Masters.

Another interesting option would be for exo-armoured squats to serve as venerable fighters, and drop them as a separate support unit and instead add them as an upgrade of 1 stand with the Inspiring ability. Sub-par Terminators with a morale bonus. In this way, they would become more of hearthlord bodyguards than an elite strike force.

By the way, Jaldon, I think that it is great that you care to help us, even if we would end up with three different "house lists". :)




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Curis
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:42 am 
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Jaldon!  I did dig through the archives for your design notes on the Squat lists from years back.  I like the detail you went into, and the reasoning behind your decisions.

5+ armour is simply too much of a step up from the Orks' 6+ armour, when they're of comparable toughness.  There needs to be a better way of representing their tenacity.  I'd rather do it through a unique mechanic  than inflate a the armour stat.

I've found that giving the formation Rhinos really stops them breaking under heavy fire, and allows you to get into base contact for a cover save.  Why were Rhinos missing from the consolidated Squat lists?




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fredmans
 Post subject: Squats revisited, part I
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:53 am 
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(Curis @ May 30 2008,10:42)
QUOTE
5+ armour is simply too much of a step up from the Orks' 6+ armour, when they're of comparable toughness.  There needs to be a better way of representing their tenacity.  I'd rather do it through a unique mechanic  than inflate a the armour stat.

This is somewhat my feeling too. A 5+ save is twice as good as a 6+ save and I do not think squats are double as tough as say orks.

/Fredmans

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