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Tournament List Mods
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 1:10 pm 
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I think they COULD be adopted by GW and bunged in the Epic LRB.  A huge load of changes would be sure to put Jervis off. A few changes stand a better chance (in my opinion, every effort should be made to convince him)


Not gonna happen.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 1:26 pm 
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(Reaver @ May 29 2008,12:12)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ May 29 2008,12:04)
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Presumably he wants control over his own tournaments, which is not a terrible thing to want. :D

This is where my problem starts - once again, it's fragmentation of the E:A community.

Mephiston suggests TacComms - and a lot of us would agree. But Matt Otter wants control over 'his' tournaments.

So we end up with different people doing different things.

This only way to have agreement is to only use what is available officially from GW. Yes, this limits the game, yes, some lists will suffer. But it is the only way I see to keep any unity in the community.
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Actually guys, I believe that Matt O. wants pretty much the same objectives as JJ (and Neal) - namely that the tournament rules and lists should be readily available from the 'official' site, with the minimum of changes needed to provide additional balance. Give the potential movement of the SG site, together with the involvement of CS, I would suggest that there is now a possibility that we could make some changes to the 'official' lists. HOWEVER, this needs to be done with great senstivity!! So - - - the very bare, essential, minimal (etc) changes are the ones to go for - where 90%+ of the people agree they are needed. (In this respect, Hena, I would consider many of the uncontested changes to which you refer). That said, gathering together the "tournament mods" list is a great start. If we take the top say 20% - 40% changes, that will probably cover what is needed, provided they can be added to the 'official' lists - which should then be left alone for a reasonable time to establish the impacts.

Note - One of the other reasons for the "Championship" was to demonstrate the power (or lack) of the various races. Again, for full analysis this will require capturing the results of the individual battles, but given that provides in excess of 500 battles in a single year, this will then become of some use.

Finally, Reaver, IMHO you are absolutely right that there should only be one set of lists that are used 'officially'. We cannot afford to fracture the community any further with squabbles over differences - and here we should be carefull to note that many are turned off by the interminable dicussions of minutiae, and the posting of a succession of "experimental" lists. So we obviously need the "official" site for official responses, FAQ etc, with a separate site/point for the "fan based/experimental" views and we must take extreme care to ensure that the two are obviously different in both content and they way they are managed - even if it is done by the same people. Equally obviously, we need a separate mechanism to permit 'official' changes to be presented as such to the wider audience, though it is moot which site should hold this.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 1:40 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ May 29 2008,13:10)
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I think they COULD be adopted by GW and bunged in the Epic LRB. ?A huge load of changes would be sure to put Jervis off. A few changes stand a better chance (in my opinion, every effort should be made to convince him)


Not gonna happen.

Umm, while I think I understand your point that GW/JJ are not going to accept these changes however small or relevant, I do not believe that we have actually come to that yet. IMHO, what we are trying to synthesise is a one-off list of minimal changes that the community agrees are fundemental to the balance of the game as a whole. If GW / JJ cannot agree to them, the whole Net:EA thing raises its head again.

However, this whole process of moving to a new site etc does present the possible window of opportunity to adopt these "fundemental" changes for the good of all - so personally I would prefer to reply that it possibly may not happen rather than using such a pessamistic and somewhat unhelpfull statement - but obviously YVMV

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:14 pm 
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I'm wondering what the point of the "Living Rulebook" idea is at all if there isn't opportunity to make at least some changes to the army lists.

Apparently t's okay to rewrite the entire close combat mechanics, but we can't say, "Hey, you know what, giving Fire Prisms a 75cm AA4+ lance shot might not have been the best idea."

Sure, in the short term, I can see how it might cause confusion to tinker around with the lists, but isn't the idea that we'll eventually "get it right," and no more changes will be necessary? I doubt there's going to be a whole new "official" version of the game anytime soon.

Now that most of the final proposed changes have been made, maybe we need another Master Army List Review document, with commentary to explain the pros and cons of each change. It wouldn't be that big of a document.

In any case, is there some time constaint we're working under? Can't we wait until after the UK tourney "season." Can't the UK tourney guy just announce at the tourneys, "Hey everybody, next year there are going to be some revisions to the army lists, so go onto epiccoms and get the updated lists."

I mean, at some point, people will be wanting to change up what they bring to a tourney, isn't there some natural pause in the fighting that these changes can be slipped in?
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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:43 pm 
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(semajnollissor @ May 29 2008,15:14)
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Can't the UK tourney guy just announce at the tourneys, "Hey everybody, next year there are going to be some revisions to the army lists, so go onto epiccoms and get the updated lists."

Part of my long term goal is to have a specific page on the web site with a set of fully downloadable rules and conditions, so that tournaments across the globe can simply use them as a standard without each one having its own set - this goes back to my initial thoughts of grades of tournament - core list only, core list and close to finished experimentals, etc.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:28 pm 
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While I wholeheartedly support the aim, my only criticism is that the site you describe really needs to be the 'official' site wherever that is - mainly because that is often the only place that many "casual" players refer to - and having a separate 'Official' site, 'Tournament' site, 'Experimental' site (and possibly one or two others) will just end up being confusing IMHO, sorry ?:(

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:23 pm 
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I mentioned Epiccoms because thats where we all go (obviously, since the "we" I'm referring to is all of us reading this post, which is on Epiccoms). However, I would guess that, if someone were to take the time and make some slick looking pdf of a rulebook with updated rules and army lists that we're discussing here, then GW would post it. I mean, they had the Raiders supplement posted before they dropped the SG website.

It's clear to me that there isn't anyone in GW who's job it is to make official rulings on anything Epic related, at least for any meaningful amount of their work hours. Nor is anyone at GW working on a fully formatted rulebook with the rules revisions they've already accepted.

I would guess that if someone were to update Markconz's EA Handbook to include only the accepted rules changes and the [accepted] army list mods discussed here in this thread, then someone at GW could be convinced to post it on the website. With their updated site, it won't be long until they'll be hurting for new content, and that can be used to our advantage.

Also, we could slap a "2009" label on it, that way implying that it's some furture version of the rules that people can be preparing for but not using right away (though, or course, most would).

A final note: now that the SG site is gone (I can't get to it, maybe some others still can), it's gonna be even harder to have a single "official" (GW) site to go to for rule updates, whether those updates are simple point changes or not. What gets posted at GWUK isn't the same as whats on GWUS. It doesn't look like the US site is going to have anything other than rules on it, since it lacks all the fanatic articles and experimental lists that the SG site had in their Epic section.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:35 pm 
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A final note: now that the SG site is gone (I can't get to it, maybe some others still can)


Delete your cookies ; US visitors can't get to it, but other regions can.


it's gonna be even harder to have a single "official" (GW) site to go to for rule updates, whether those updates are simple point changes or not.

There will be no more updates to the currently-existing army lists, barring exceptional need.

It doesn't look like the US site is going to have anything other than rules on it, since it lacks all the fanatic articles and experimental lists that the SG site had in their Epic section.

The UK site will soon look the same as the US site.

GW won't be hosting the experimental army lists anymore after that.




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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:26 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ May 29 2008,14:35)
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GW won't be hosting the experimental army lists anymore after that.

The US site doesn't even have the Black Legion list, which is as official as the Speed Freaks and White Scars lists that are available there.

It makes me wonder if any of the currently experimental lists will ever make the transition to being GW official.

If not, that's big Boo! Hiss! against GW being the place to go for anything official. I mean, are tyranid and tau players just SoL?

That's why Epiccoms is the next best place to go, IMNSHO.

[I keep saying Epiccoms, but you guys know I mean Tactical Command]
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:33 pm 
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The US site doesn't even have the Black Legion list


I believe that is an accidental ommision, which they will rectify.

I mean, are tyranid and tau players just SoL?

No, I believe the main purpose of Epicomms should now be to playtest and approve new army lists.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:52 pm 
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What not to fix the horrendously broken Chaos lists? :p

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:55 pm 
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Unfortunately, we must live with past mistakes and misdeeds, both of ourselves and of others. :)

Also, I've been playtesting BlackLegion's Chaos Renegades army list.  :p  :D




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alansa
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:18 pm 
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(Ginger @ May 29 2008,19:28)
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While I wholeheartedly support the aim, my only criticism is that the site you describe really needs to be the 'official' site wherever that is - mainly because that is often the only place that many "casual" players refer to - and having a separate 'Official' site, 'Tournament' site, 'Experimental' site (and possibly one or two others) will just end up being confusing IMHO, sorry ?:(

I agree with this wholeheartedly ginger.

People can play Net EA if they like. People can even hold Net EA tournaments if they wish.

But I don't think you can muddle the waters here - you play GW EA or Net EA - make your mind and make your choice.

But, by definition,  there is only one place for GW Epic Armageddon and that place has the  Games Workshop stamp on it - if CS can get that stamp, then it might suffice.

Net EA may satisfy  those people who lurk here, but those who don't, and those newbies coming from the 40k world, are going to be pissed off with people bashing them with obscure rules variants from obscure websites.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:29 pm 
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I've come around to the view that the best way for Net:EA to dovetail with official Epic is to offer alternative army lists.

Therefore, we won't be able to change the stats of, for example, the Baneblade, in the Steel Legion army list.

However, Net:EA can provide an, uhh, Brass Legion army list.

This would be identical to the Steel Legion army list, except it would have a more powerful Baneblade, to draw a basic example.

Tournaments can then say either:

'Only official army lists are allowed'

or:

'Official army lists are allowed, plus the following army lists: Brass Legion, Knebworth Siegemasters, etc...'

GW tournies would offer the former, whilst I think it's quite reasonable that external tournaments can offer the latter.


To put it simply, if we can't change the existing army lists, we write new ones, which people can choose to use or choose not to use.


Importantly, we wouldn't touch the core rules.




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Pulsar
 Post subject: Tournament List Mods
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:49 pm 
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i think E&C has the right idea, if we can't change the core army lists the major thing this site could do is put togeter a set of well balanced and very playtested lists that hopfuly solve all the problems we think there are in those main lists.

because at the end of the day isn't this site here to make more people play epic, so the easier we make it for new players the better it'll be.

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