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Moving and breaking unit coherency.

Pettan

Post subject: Moving and breaking unit coherency.

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:27 pm

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If you have for example a squat combat squad or a detachment of trolls and want to deploy them rapidly into the fray rhinos are often used for speedy movement.
The thing is that to move the 10 units you need 2 detachments of rhinos with 3 each.
When activating the first group of 3 rhinos and move them the allowed movement you actually break the unit coherency for some time since 40% of the dudes in the rhinos are left behind for some time.
Offcourse one can remedy that later in the turn by activating the rest of the rhinos but is this allowed?

Another question might be, are the player allowed to activate the troops before unit coherency have been achieved? I mean then they cannot meet the requiered 6 cm. A follow up is, what happens if the unactivated rhinos are charged...

I see a mess.. Does anyone else?

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zap123

Post subject: Moving and breaking unit coherency.

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:32 am

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Yeah, it is a mess. ?This is probably the one good advertisment for the Plague Tower. ?Around here we do allow what you've described, but it is a little cludgy....and gets worse when your opponent destroys some of your Rhinos with snap fire and you end up with Minotaurs strewn across the battlefield.

If you do activate the unit the only thing it could do is move back into coherency.

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primarch

Post subject: Moving and breaking unit coherency.

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:13 am

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(zap123 @ Apr. 25 2008,20:32)

QUOTE

Yeah, it is a mess. This is probably the one good advertisment for the Plague Tower. Around here we do allow what you've described, but it is a little cludgy....and gets worse when your opponent destroys some of your Rhinos with snap fire and you end up with Minotaurs strewn across the battlefield.

If you do activate the unit the only thing it could do is move back into coherency.

Hi!

Well, one of the nice things about netepic is that we can change messes.

What would be a simple solution to this?

a. point buy per rhino to field as many as you need?
b. add extra support cards with 4, 5 and 6 rhinos?

Opinions?

Primarch

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Pettan

Post subject: Moving and breaking unit coherency.

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:16 am

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Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:28 am
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Location: Sweden

This is not easy to solve with a quick jab or thrust with my puny wand but I will try to give a couple of suggestions...

First, an example exists in the squat rulebook about the Zutik clan.
5) Mechanized: Zutik armies are highly mobile. You may add Rhinos or Ironshields to any infantry or special unit, up to the amount needed to transport all the stands. This rule adds to the cost, Break and Victory Points of a Company, Special or Support Card, as indicated.
Transport Upgrade Break Point Victory Points Cost
Add 1-2 Rhinos to a card +1 +0 0
Add 3 Rhinos to a card +2 +1 +50

I am not saying we should make a similar system for all armies but might use it for inspiration.

Suggestions to fix the mess:

1: Force a player to activate 2 support card at the same time - The downside might be a change in the basic rule of "one datachment at a time" So I think the next example is better suited for our needs..

2: Buy bigger rhinocards for armies that might need them. 5 or 6 Rhinos in a support card for 100 buckazoids. - Much easier. Perhaps 5 would be better since to my knowledge there are no bigger support card than 10 units.. (trolls, chaos & inperial beastmen, squat combat squad.... )

The golden rule is unit coherency. This should never be allowed to be broken, not even in the "activating different rhino squads". Now when we can drive away with transports from the transported stands(I really like that rule).

There might be more/better solutions but I do believe that a solution to this problem should be found.

Be well.

/Pete

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zap123

Post subject: Moving and breaking unit coherency.

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:48 am

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(primarch @ Apr. 26 2008,03:13)

QUOTE

(zap123 @ Apr. 25 2008,20:32)

QUOTE

Actually, my suggestion would be to specifically disallow it. So,

"A detachment can only be transported if all of its' members can be transported by a single unit/detachment of transports. A detachment may not have members transported by transports from two or more seperate detachments in any turn."

The few things this really affects like the larger Chaos and IG detachments were probably never meant to be transported in the first place, and it is somewhat unbalancing to allow it. It also provides an incentive to use the Plague Tower for Chaos and Leviathan/CI for IG. And now people can stop asking what they are good for

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Pettan

Post subject: Moving and breaking unit coherency.

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:25 pm

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I like this idea aswell.

A problem with this might be that the chaos army get a slight shaft.
IG are not supposed to be as moblie as the rest of the empire armies either.

/Pete

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gaskran

Post subject: Moving and breaking unit coherency.

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:32 pm

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I don?t agree here though. In my opinion what really pushed NetEpic ahead of the original Space Marine rule set was the improved mobility options. Suddenly the eternal long range barrage-fest came to an end and smaller units actually had a chance to fight it out. To severely limit the movement opportunities of some armies would seriously hamper the game.
The solution I think is to buy transports, not in separate detachments but as ad-ons, as pettans example with the squat clan. Because this is not only a problem with rhinos, all units with transport capabilities should be incorporated into such a rule set.

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duz.holger

Post subject: Moving and breaking unit coherency.

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:30 pm

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my point is to go back to the idea of TL2 for IG that the IG is slow and heavy like as sledge hammer and the cult mecanicus due its tight connection with the forge worlds is smaller but much more mobile due to high level of mechanisation

just a thought

again there is actually no difference between IG an CM today and there is a logical diff. in reality i want to revive the CM for real and not as a second thought at the designers

you see it in reality in the us army there is the usmc who is small bud armed to the teeth and highly mobile and then there is the good old army core they have a division for any situation but they are slow to mobilise and send to the front and both is normal humans and the SM's is the special forces like seals and delta

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zap123

Post subject: Moving and breaking unit coherency.

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:51 am

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Yeah, I agree. There are plenty of mobility options available to IG and Chaos....making the really cheap Minotaur/Troll/Tactical/Beastment detachments faster would be unbalancing. If you want speed take a detachment of CSMs and put them in Rhinos/Dreadclaw/Deathdealer. If you want to transport Minotaurs take a Plaguetower.

I also agree with Duz about the IG losing their old "foot slogger" character now they have all the same goodies as the Tech Guard. A bit of a shame, but I just use the PDF list now as my "old school" IG army.

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Pettan

Post subject: Moving and breaking unit coherency.

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:38 am

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Who in the chaos army shouldn?t be allowed to use Rhinos then? And can this be implemented in the rules somehow.

Checked the yahoo group aswell. Seems this discussion is really old but I dont know if they have come anywhere either. 7 years ago it seemed like "Any "human" follower of Chaos, i.e. CSM, Cultist, or Magus, can use chaos transports such as the T-Hawk and Rhino. No demon, or troll, or minotaur can use them." but now as far as I know this has been changed back to the old rules.

/Pete

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Napalm

Post subject: Moving and breaking unit coherency.

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:25 am

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I always used rhinos for troll even in SM2, couting 2 stands of trolls as 2 stands of marines.

Plague tower is too slow, (I made a topic for this:, what's the point of using a 15cm transport?)
Maybe you cannot use rhino for this, but in the Sm2 era, plague tower used to double movement in charge orders.

I almost use only original epic cards (with a few exceptions, like all the flying things), and I've got no problems with IG: whole company fit in the praetorians.

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Pettan

Post subject: Moving and breaking unit coherency.

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:47 pm

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Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:28 am
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Well, with the plague tower you gain 25 cm with the troops inside.. 25 cm is not that bad...

My idea of the chaos army is that it is in general a not very fast army mostly running on their legs. In return they are alot harder to kill with all of thier chaos cards, regenerating very cheap trolls. More like a mass/ a horde creeping forward devovering all in its path.

The chaos marines is the quick part of a chaos army being able to attack in drop pods or shock troops in infantry.

If you mix the shock capability of the CSM with the slow monsters you get a very effective attack force/points spent, maybe the most effective in the game and I believe that it was not intended this way.

The ones in the chaos army who use Hightech are mainly the space marines as far as I know. According to the rules now you can actually build an army of demons and monsters with Rhinos. I do not understand where the rhinos come from? the void? Planet troll? Planet beastmen?
If the trolls or beastmen were so technologically advanced why dont they use range weapons.

Perhaps I dont understand everyting about the world that all of this is happening in. But this is just a belief I have at the moment.

/Pete

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Napalm

Post subject: Moving and breaking unit coherency.

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:33 pm

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Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:16 am
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Because chaos and chaos marines weren't 2 different lists in the old era.
Well that's not a real problem, personally i move the 1st rhino group, and with the next activation I move the second.

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gaskran

Post subject: Moving and breaking unit coherency.

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:03 pm

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Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:12 pm
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Okidoki, so following this logic it would be OK to transport the trolls/minotaurs in a unit of three Death dealers (Transport 5 each)? Since you can buy support cards from the standard chaos list to reinforce a Khorne daemon. No need then to use the famed plague tower for transport purposes, (which I think it never was intended for).

And how to do it with the squats then? The burner or warrior detachments. They will be set to ride Leviathans or Hellworms, never rhinos?

Well it?s OK I guess but it will be less flexible for a lot of armies taking away a lot of the fun in mobility tactics. Setting the scene for that old barrage mania, Ie. lining up craploads of artillery in the far end of the field, pulverizing the advancing footsloggers as they trod along. Again putting infantry at a disadvantage in favor of long range firepower.

No, my vote is still to buy transports off the shelf...

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primarch

Post subject: Moving and breaking unit coherency.

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:39 am

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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
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Hi!

No reason to have it as an optional rule, for those whom like to tailor their game.

Those whom don't like it can leave it out.

Rhinos 15 points per vehicle, rounded up.

4 rhinos - 60 points
5 rhinos - 75 points
6 rhinos - 90 points.

VP's are calculated as normal, same for break points.

Primarch

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