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Different Titan Classes

BlackLegion

Post subject: Different Titan Classes

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:49 pm

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I have another idea. But for this we should adopt the Apocalypse Weapon restrictions:

Example for Warlord:
Basic chassis would be a Nightghaunt with 20cm move, 3 Void Shields and 2 Arm Weapon Mounts.

1st Upgrade would be Eclipse (could be for free perhabs):
-5cm move + 1 Carapace Weapon Mount.

2nd Upgrade would be Death Bringer (should cost points):
+3 Void Shields + 2 Carapace Weapon Mounts

3rd Upgrade would be Nemesis (should cost points):
-5cm Move, Carapace Weapon Mounts can be equipped with Arm Weapons (excluding Titan-CC-Weapon).

All boni from these upgrades are cumulative. You have to purchase the Eclipse and Death Bringer upgrade ifirst n order to purchase the Nemesis upgrade.

Reaver would be:

Base = Vandal: 25cm move, 3 Void Shields, 2 Arm Weapon Mounts
Hun: -5cm, +1 Void Shield, +1 Carapace Weapon Mount
Goth: -5cm, +1 Void Shield, Carapace Weapon Mount can mount Arm Weapons (excluding Titan-CC-Weapon).

Thoughts?

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Ginger

Post subject: Different Titan Classes

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:36 am

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BL

What you are suggesting makes a lot of sense, because you are specifying several upgrade configurations for each titan, and defining the points cost for each upgrade. This takes into account the different impacts on each titan, and is the best way to achieve this kind of variety IMHO. However, it does mean a larger number of definitions which some others seem to consider too complex. (you would possibly end up with 1x upgrade for the Warhound, 2x upgrades for the Reaver, and possibly 3x upgrades for the Warlord)

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Different Titan Classes

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:40 am

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Warhound could be this:
Basis = Jackal:
Move 30cm, 1 Void Shield, 2 Arm Weapon Mounts.

Either
Upgrade Mastiff (free):
-5cm move, +1 Void Sield

Or
Upgrade Wolf (should cost points):
+1 Void Shield

There you could only have one of these upgrades.

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Onyx

Post subject: Different Titan Classes

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:24 am

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Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am
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Location: Western Australia

(BlackLegion @ Apr. 23 2008,04:49)

QUOTE

I have another idea. But for this we should adopt the Apocalypse Weapon restrictions

The idea of weapon restrictions has already been rejected HERE.
Consequently it doesn't seem worthwile trying to develop list using them.
It seems most of us aren't interested in what Apocolypse has to say so it would be more beneficial to try and develop the list we have.

Good on you for still thinking about these things though BL.

I do have to say though, all these different types of Titans can seem confusing and unnecassary.
I thought the whole point of this list was to keep it simple (unlike V2)?

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Ginger

Post subject: Different Titan Classes

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:19 am

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Onyx

I understand and share your concerns about restricted weapon configurations, but IMO, BL's suggestion of defined upgrades to each titan class has a lot of merit, not least because I think it will allow the weapons to adopt a common pricing mechanism. So what is being suggested is that AMTL list development goes through effectively the following stages (ignoring allies for the moment) :-

Consider the standard costed titans (275, 650 & 850) and use this to derive the "standard" cost ?of each chassis and weapons.
Consider the relative effectiveness of each weapon against the "standard" weapon cost. Where a weapon is significantly inferior, make that a "free" weapon; so the cost of the "standard" weapon is +25 points, and the relevant "standard" chassis is reduced appropriately. The better weapons get incremental costs
Derive the cost of shields, weapon mounts and speed to price the minimum chassis with amended stats. (In keeping with the limited cost differentials, I wouuld suggest that titan upgrades be in +25 point increments)
Provide specific chassis upgrades in terms of shields, mounts and speed together with associated costs.

IMO we are pretty close to achieving stages #1 & #2 already. ?Stages #3 and #4 can be deemed optional if need be, but could be result in a separate "titan upgrade" section with perhaps a total of 5-7 entries, possibly divided into separate sections for each titan class. That does not sound too complicated does it?

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Ginger

Post subject: Different Titan Classes

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:47 pm

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Rug

You misunderstand my intent here (and in the other lists) a little. I have little interest in the AMTL list at present because I do not have many titans, and certainly no "variants". I am merely making suggestions to find the best way forwards for those who do, without compromising the list to any extent.

Currently I would see two approaches for the titan "variants":-
1) We decide to adopt this as mainstream, so start the Chassis costs at the minimum ?with +25 point increments
2) We decide to leave this as an optional mechanism, in which case the "lighter" version of the chassis have a -25 point increment etc.

Either way is valid IMHO and would seem to be an appropriate and logical extension of E&Cs design philosophy (although aesthetically and linguistically, an "upgrade" implies an addition or improvement rather than a reduction).

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Different Titan Classes

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:56 pm

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If I understand you correctly Ginger, you're proposing attempting to break down the points costs of the current standard configuration titans into their constituent parts (Not just weapons, but also shields, speed, damage capacity, armour save, etc) and assign theoretical points costs to each aspect, which would then allow for variants (Let's say a Warlord with 8 Shields) to be constructed according to those pre-set rules.

I am not certain that this would work in a balanced manner, if only because there was no intent to provide such points allocation 'blocks' when the Titans were first playtested and statted up (They were statted up and then assigned a points cost, rather than assigning a points cost to each component and then constructing them).

Any points costs we would assign to the Titan's components (for example, speed) would be largely arbitrary (Although guided by our own awareness of the rough value of things), and would consequentially be very hard to balance for use as an Epic-friendly 'Titan Construction Kit'.

I would prefer a much simpler version of any Titan class rules, if those classes are desired at all.

Apologies if I have misconstrued your thoughts.

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Ginger

Post subject: Different Titan Classes

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:53 pm

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Right in principle, just a tad over complex ~~Chris~~ ?E&C

Working from the "pseudo science" mechanic a second and using fictional costs, BL (and indeed ~~E&C~~ you) was suggesting that :-

? ? ? - The basic "light" Warlord chassis might be 725 for ?4x shields, 2x mounts with 20cm movement.
? ? ? - for +25, you might get the "standard" configuration of 8DC, 6x shields, 4x mounts with 15 cm movement
? ? ? - for a further +25, you might get the "Heavy" version with 8DC, 6x Shield, 5x mounts, Extra attack +1 with 15 cms (or even 10cms) movement

I am certainly not advocating allowing people to mix and match DC, shields, speed (engines etc) even though you might use the "pseudo science" approach to quantify the general mechanics.

The reason why I think this might work is because the key component here IMO is the number of weapons linked to speed / shields. By costing the weapons separately, effectively we are really pricing the speed / resilience of the beast which should be relatively straight forward provided we consider each titan class separately. It is also the reason for using small cost increments; as ~~you~~ others have pointed out in the past, this does not affect the assault characteristics

============
Edited as I had a complete brainstorm and thought I was replying to TRC ? :blush:

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Different Titan Classes

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:47 pm

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Right. I didn't wanted to suggest something like Battletech where every point of something (movement, DC, shield, etc) has a points value to construct any Titan you want.

And Rug: To my understanding the Apocalypse weapon restrictions where rejected for the standart chassis titans.
One reason was because this would make some of the current models invalid. With my upgrades system above you could still field them. The worst would be that you have to upgrade your Titan with your own weapons configuration to a Nemesis/Goth to be able to field legally the weapons he has.

The other reason was because people give a crap about current Wh40k developement

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Different Titan Classes

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:50 pm

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And Rug: To my understanding the Apocalypse weapon restrictions where rejected for the standart chassis titans.
One reason was because this would make some of the current models invalid.

As far as I'm concerned, it was the only reason.

Fact is, if GW were to put out a Titan game tomorrow, it would have those weapon restrictions ; As far as GW is concerned, those restrictions are now canon.

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Ginger

Post subject: Different Titan Classes

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:10 pm

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(Rug @ Apr. 23 2008,13:38)

QUOTE

I do not understand your reasoning, as it does not simply seem to be "because it would be cool" (which would be valid!).

I am misunderstanding your intent!

Well, there are several thoughts here:-
- It would allow a little more flexibility into the list, and a little more colour
- It would also allow people to use the old AMTL plastic titans with different numbers of weapons (as well as different weapon types)
- It would also allow people to model different patterns for campaigns etc, and as BL says, avoids invalidating existing (or future) models
- and yes it would be "cool" too ?

But I also agree that it could be viewed as a variant of a fan list, hence the suggestion that it could be deemed "optional" and put at the bottom of the list (with the Imperator

) if E&C wants to do things that way or even be left off all together.

If we adopt this at all, there should be a minimal number of 5-7 "upgrades" in total that cover specific chassis / weapon mount configurations for specific titan classes as BL has suggested. The reason for avoiding a single set of 2-3 upgrades that cover all classes is purely because of the problems that causes trying to level out costs and effects across the titan classes.

Does that make better sense?

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