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CSM list review
Irondeath
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:57 pm 
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That LD question can be condensed IMO: Do we want to go generic for no better reason than to follow the latest 40k Codex? At least I think that?s all that?s in favour of going that route.

My answer is a firm "No!".

We have the stats, they work, there are models. Screw 40k.

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Magarch
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:12 pm 
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(Irondeath @ Mar. 21 2008,16:57)
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That LD question can be condensed IMO: Do we want to go generic for no better reason than to follow the latest 40k Codex?

Actually, I can give you a very good reason, for new players ;

Generic daemons allow you to use any Daemon model. You then can use all of those on the Chaos Horde Epic box without having to find the specific ones you need. That's a huge advantage !  :D
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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:50 pm 
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It lacks character. It also starts to make the force rather boring. part of the fun of Chaos are the factions and the faction specific daemons.

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Ginger
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:05 pm 
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(pixelgeek @ Mar. 21 2008,18:50)
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It lacks character. It also starts to make the force rather boring. part of the fun of Chaos are the factions and the faction specific daemons.

I agree with you here PG, we do need to keep in as much colour as possible. However, at present it is just too easy and tempting to take a mono-faction force with undivided titans etc. Out of interest, what is to prevent all formations/weapons being 'God-specific'?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:49 pm 
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*bump*

Seems like everyone has said their piece now... have you made any decisions PG?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:16 pm 
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Well I have been out of it for a while, so can't offer much new (well I'm sure PG is tired of hearing some of it by now!). I would suggest PG that you ask some of the guys who had some success at tournies how they fared (or find their accounts online). Also I've always liked the amount of Ignore Cover in the list, made it feel like a list breaking out of the cadian gate (a big fortification), especially on the big slow warengines that would concievably be abondoned once you have the break through.

Tiny Tim especially seems horrified at Chosen with the new assault rules.

Oh and yes, scrap the factions rule. Armies just avoid it.

I agree on demons being poor, I just go for regular troops.

I think with the list there are a lot of increment changes. E.g. +25 for oblit's, a cost for the SC, more for Raptors etc. I think if taken all together the net effect is to knock an activation or maybe two off an 'optimised' (and they are fairly similar) Tourny list.

Only way to see the impact is make all the changes, see how your successful armies are effected and play a game or ten.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:16 pm 
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I am still waiting to hear back from Jervis about what sort of changes he wants to see done to the list.

I'll send him a reminder email

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Legion 4
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:57 am 
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Oi !!  Greywolf asked me this and I don't have the answer ?!??!  Maybe I missed this ?!  How come there are no Chaos Engines, like the Lord of Battle, Doomblaster, Plague Engines, etc. are not listed on the Chaos SM list only on the LotD lists ?!?! ???  I organize my CSMs based on SM1 & 2 standards. And the Chaos Engines were allow to both in SM1 ... So whats the deal ?!?  ???

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:52 am 
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(Legion 4 @ Apr. 13 2008,03:57)
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?How come there are no Chaos Engines, like the Lord of Battle, Doomblaster, Plague Engines, etc. are not listed on the Chaos SM list only on the LotD lists

Because you can only use them in the LatD list

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:40 am 
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This is a very silly answer. So the reasin is entirely artificial and has nothing to do with the background?

How are Cultists which have tohide mostz of the time from imperial authorities until they openly rebel more capable tu build such grotesque daemon engines than Chaos Space Marines which dwell most of the time in the Eye of Terror where whole forge worlds are dedicated to built the hellish machines of Chaos?




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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:31 am 
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(BlackLegion @ Apr. 13 2008,18:40)
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This is a very silly answer.

It answers the question directly. Perhaps the question needs to be rephrased?

In any case, Jervis is the person to provide an answer

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Legion 4
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:37 am 
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I totally agree with you Black Legion. That's my point ! Fluff-wise it doesn't make sense. And as I said in SM1 both CSM and Cultists could use them ...  So I'm going to continue to do my own SM1 type thing - ie. DWWFY ! :D  Thanks Boyz !

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:11 am 
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My impression is that the lists were split because:

- All of the models were intended to be made available for the Black Legion army list.

- The models for the L&TD army list were not intended to be re-released.


As it happened, they never got around to making the models for the Black Legion list in any case. :D

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Kleomenes
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:32 am 
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Personally, after initial nostalgia for earlier editions of epic, I have grown to love the distinction. It came fairly early on if I remember rightly, when there were still plans to re release EVERYTHING

I believe one of the justifications offered is that the demon engines are specifically used/built by rebels due to their limited resources. Its much easier for them to make a metal shell and bind a demon within it than to actually make a working battle tank / war engine. People and magic they have, industry they dont. Makes sense to me.

As to why Black Legion dont have it, Id also submit its a "They arent running about in 40k in marine armies" thing as well. It also helps keep the black legion distinct from rabble cultists and allows the introduction of their own war engines - which is something, again, I disliked at first but have grown to love.

I mean really, do you see the Black Legion pushing round a giant demon siege tower? Another lightning assault by the black legion on the enemies command structure - by their 10mph wooden shack on wheels!

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Irondeath
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:35 pm 
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L4 and BL:

If you want to combine lists/troops in friendly games, go right ahead. You don?t need anyone?s permission to do that, not from JJ, pixelgeek myself or whomever.

The lists are specifically made for tournament use and aim for a balanced game. Balancing would be much more difficult both in a unified Chaos list having everyting from Banelords to Chaos Squats included as would be the case in a single "Forces of the Imperium" list allowing Terminators alongside Vultures and Siegemaster fortifications.

Again, there is nothing stopping you from fielding whatever combination forces you fancy, if your epic buddies agree. Go right ahead.

As far as I can tell neither of you is a tournament player, so what?s the problem?

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