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what is wrong with the US and DK armys

 Post subject: what is wrong with the US and DK armys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:32 am 
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thanks and sorry for my rather confrontational way but i was interested in the feelings of the 2 designs from fighting men and women's out there all over the globe and i see why there is such a deferent way and of course the logistical thing is not to understate but i always thought that the big one was ammo not magazine  type but you have educated me and thanks for that when one of your good friends give you a problem you can't solve you need help and boy i needed help i have used 1 and a half month getting in to the core of why there is these 2 rifle systems and that some countries stubbornly use one and others the other system and as i can see the inventors is as intrenched as the armies and i couldn't find out why and this is a foray  where there is a lot of military personals form all over the world and that you can have a free talk with out the generals looking over your shoulders so you can talk free on issues like this

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 Post subject: what is wrong with the US and DK armys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:17 pm 
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The bullpup design is one that offers great advantages on paper, but it still comes down to the implementation.  I figure the local SAS chapter carry the M4 for a good reason.  I'm sure I read somewhere that Malaysia was actually replacing their AUGs with M4s.....

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 Post subject: what is wrong with the US and DK armys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:51 pm 
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People have hit on the logistics issue and I think that's major.  For general use, you really need to have interchangeable left/right configurations.  There are too many left-eyed shooters out there for it to be cumbersome to switch over the ejection system.

If I had to pick a reason, I'd say that in the US replacing the M16 rifle has simply been a low priority.  The M16 is still a good weapon design, so other weapon systems had a greater priority.  For example, about 10 years ago, the US infantry transitioned away from the M60 machine gun to the more robust FN MAG variant.  Coming from a former machine gunner, I think that was a much better investment of money than changing out rifles.

I'm not a big fan of the FN SAW, either, and it's probably the second most common firearm in the US military.  If I were making the call for what to spend money on replacing it would be more important than the M16 as well.

And let's not forget one very important item -  despite practical considerations, things like giant military supply contracts are inherently political.

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 Post subject: what is wrong with the US and DK armys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:08 pm 
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ok but a common mistake is that the AUG is difficult to change left/right its a flip of a piece of plastic takes no more then a second for a infantryman but again if you was to take and outfit a army with a full infantry fighting system that would you choose no sting attached other then it is on the market now or in weary near future design type example old battle tested ak47, mg43 and brengun  or a new untested  system that has the latest innovations in gun-platform this is actually the mind game my friend has right now or would you put your money in enhancing the weapon system via electronics or would you go low tech for the fear ebombs or other jamming would you go low price and greet quantity or high price an low quantity that is the essens of the question

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 Post subject: what is wrong with the US and DK armys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:08 pm 
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example would you go IG or SM for the future of conflict

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 Post subject: what is wrong with the US and DK armys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:33 pm 
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Again, a lot of good points. Logistics is always a critical factor. But for example keeping the calibre in a new weapon the same is only one consideration. Parts and other support systems for the new weapon will also be a consideration. ?Assault rifles, like the M-16 and AK-47, etc. came about because of the WWII experiences that the tactic of fire and movement/maneuver works. Suppressing a target with fire, while another element maneuvers to it's flank ... Just like WWI helped spawn the sub-machine gun. The M-16/M-4 works and has worked against the enemies faced in the late 20th and early 21st centuries. Since many are using it's counter part, the AK-47. Now once the US goes to some newer system, and gives it a bigger firepower/fire superiority factor then it already has, the enemies will be at a bigger disadvantage. So whether the design is Bull-pup, like the SA-80, FAMAS, etc., or like the P-90, etc., etc. ... the bottom line after logistical considerations/(money), is tactic needs of the battlefield. ?I started as cadet training with an M-14 which is basically just a magazine feed M-1. It had knock down power firing a full rifle round, but didn't have the ability to effectively place suppressive fire. A factor critical in modern tactics. ?And since suppressive fire requires a lot of rounds being fired at a target, and it was no longer a requirement to have a round that can kill a horse, a smaller cartridge meant more ammo could be carried. Plus suppressive fire could be used effectively and the Grunt already over burdened with gear, gets a little break. ?Not to mention like a submachine gun or machine gun if properly used increases your chances of killing something, if for nothing else you are throwing a lot of rounds at a target ... So as much as design is a consideration, logistics, and tactical employment all play critical factors. ?A well trained unit with M-1s will be more effective then marginally trained guerillas with AK-47s. ?But even in the "Wars of Liberation" of the late 20th and early 21st centuries being feed Soviet AKs, PKMs, RPGs, etc., gave the marginally trained but extremely motivated (willingness to die in large numbers) guerillas a bit of an edge ... ?Of course we could always Nuc'm ! :ghostface:




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 Post subject: what is wrong with the US and DK armys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:55 pm 
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yes but there is a big question burred here its the question of military philosophy do you want the best weapon but in low quantity as a general or du you want a useful weapon in high quantity the example can be found in history the Germans had far superior weapons but didn't have them quantity in equipment or man power on the other hand the allied had for the most part shitty weapon but in large very large quantity example the sherman was nearly the worst tank ever but there were produced nearly 14 millions of them the question do you want few soldiers with the best  trening and weapons or do you want 10 million idiots with a 5 bug ak47 and 10 minutes trening thats the question it costs 250000 to train and equip a marine soldier and around 10 bugs to make a mujahidin it the core of the question whish is best quality or quantity in battle nato vs warshaw pact . axes vs alias

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 Post subject: what is wrong with the US and DK armys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:36 pm 
I noted an interesting side effect while reading "Black Hawk Down" (Mark Bowden). The Delta Force dudes essentially chose their own weapons. One guy had an AK-47, another guy had something that I can't quite remember - but it had greater penetrative effect, and much less knock-down than the AK-47.

The various Delta Force guys started to envy the knock-down of the AK-47 simply because it was more 'satisfying' to see their opponent fall down. Mister Penetrator kept swearing that he would shoot guys that popped around corners through the chest, only to have them retreat back around the corner. Obviously, they quickly perished from their wounds, but they did it out of sight.






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 Post subject: what is wrong with the US and DK armys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:09 pm 
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If going from scratch try for high tech, caseless etc. But otherwise always extend a weapon system till the very end of its useful life, just 'cause its cheapest!

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 Post subject: what is wrong with the US and DK armys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:18 pm 
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The various Delta Force guys started to envy the knock-down of the AK-47 simply because it was more 'satisfying' to see their opponent fall down. Mister Penetrator kept swearing that he would shoot guys that popped around corners through the chest, only to have them retreat back around the corner. Obviously, they quickly perished from their wounds, but they did it out of sight.


Oi!  Dem sneaky humies is always krawlin off ta hide when dey kick it!!  'Ow's an Ork s'posed to to get a proppa look-see?

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 Post subject: what is wrong with the US and DK armys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:30 pm 
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A friend of mine told a story from when he was deployed:

- Local village is being accosted by wild dogs.
- His squad turns up to help and he spots two dogs.
- He shoots the first one, which falls over, injured but very much alive.
- The bullet passes through the first dog and into the second, and due to the tumble introduced into the bullet's flight by the first dog, the second dog promptly explodes.

The lesson being that it's not the calibre of the ammo, but the tip and attidude of flight, that detirmine what your target does when you hit him.

NATO rounds are designed to disable (Where possible) rather than kill, so if you're shot in the limb for example, whilst an AK47 will likely tear your arm irrepairably open, as long as the NATO round misses your arteries your arm will probably be saveable.

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 Post subject: what is wrong with the US and DK armys
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:36 pm 
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Good point, E&C. A lot of modern rounds are designed to tumble inside the target, assuming they don't go clear through the target.

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