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Daemonhunters

 Post subject: Daemonhunters
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:34 am 
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Grey Knights Shrouding - Change the -1 to-hit from 45cm to 15cm, or even all ranged shooting outside of Firefight range.


An assault in Epic is meant to be roughly equivalent to a game in 40k.  Firefight start at 15cm range so shrouding should definitely work beyond this range.  I strongly agree with E&C on this one.

The Aquilla was described in the AI rules but the chances of it being released don't look that flash.

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 Post subject: Daemonhunters
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:36 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 10 2008,18:33)
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It doesn't fit with E:A's general design philosophy.

I fail to see why. Orks, for example, have formations that can be made by the unit.

There is no Aquilla Lander model.

Yeah, I realised that after posting. Would be nice.

Then why make up your own vehicle?

Making up your own vehicle when there's a perfectly servicable model available is just fannish, IMHO.
Well as follows:

1) The arvus isn't suitable, it's unarmed and the transport capacity is too small. It'll do as a proxy though.

2) The arvus didn't exist when I made the list

3) The Pegasus was modelled after the landers described as used by the Inqusitorial Task Force in Xenos. Abnett didn't give the craft a name so we did.

4) Not 100% sure on this one, but apparently the name Pegasus actually came from some obscure GW reference to an orbital lander. (Can't remember who suggested it).

E&C, I've had people complaining that I used too little imagination and stuck too slavishly to the 40K rules. I do not want to be constrained too much by existing models or 40K rules. This is my list, not Forgeworld's.

[assassins]Allowing choice at the time of use is a little more 'gamey', is all, and gamey is bad.
It is more gamey, but it is also much simpler. This way it gives some destinction of temple. Any attempt to make players note down temple before the game is going to much complicate the datafax or army list and it's going to be muddy as I'm lumping the temples. If you've suggestions as to how to word it, I'm open, but I really don't think it's worth the trouble - gamey or not.

If shrouding has an effect at the ranges evident in 40k, it sure should have an effect at 30cm in Epic.
40K again.

Shrouding has a point in 40K, which is to protect the comparatively specialised Grey Knights. The special rule also has a point in Epic, but the range need be increased. Pure Grey Knights really have a problem with a) aircraft, b) barrages and c) very long ranged (45cm or more) fire. Anything within that they can deal with.

Also, shrouding only really is effective at comparitively long ranges in 40K (which translate to 30-45cm in epic).

The special rule should serve the list, not the list based around the special rule just because that's the way it is in 40K.

For game balance reasons, and has been extensively playtested, 45cm is fine.

He's a Commander.
In the army list itself.

Hero-Hammer is bad, IMHO.

Very bad.
Maybe, maybe not. However, the Inquisitorial Task Force and the retinues in particular really do revolve around those characters.

Consider the retinue. The whole point of its existence is to protect the Inquisitor and carry out his bidding. The entire formation really does center around the "hero," whether he wields a hammer or not. If the Inquisitor is dead, the formation loses it's reason d'etre... It's just a roving band of bounty hunters and clerks.

With a guard formation, you lose the commander and there is a second-in-command. The formation continues.

More than that, the entire army revolves around these heroes. Whereas other armies focus on their grunt troops - after all, it's an Imperial Guard list not a Commissar list - the Inquisition (in background terms and in 40K too) really does focus on the Inquisitors themselves, with everything else a mere means to an end.

The Inquisitors are awe-inspring figures of utter dread and awesome power, protected by ancient technologies and the most capable staff the Imperium has to offer. Having them a) drop dead the first time they come under fire or b) skulk at the rear of the formation does not feel right. Herohammer or not, that rule is very much there for a reason. They are very few in numbers, but they are the focus of the list.

I'd settle for a list that looks like I'd enjoy playing it. :p
Well, I enjoy playing it! In fact, hopefully I'll get my first game in ages tomorrow.

The only thing I don't enjoy is trying to pick up those DAMN little grey knights. Those halberds break if you look at them funny.

An assault in Epic is meant to be roughly equivalent to a game in 40k. ?Firefight start at 15cm range so shrouding should definitely work beyond this range. ?I strongly agree with E&C on this one.
And I strongly disagree, for the reasons I've given above. But note that there are many 24" weapons like assault cannon that are 30cm. An assault is roughly equivalent, but that represents a regular battle where troops are within 24" of each other - not longer ranges.

The Aquilla was described in the AI rules but the chances of it being released don't look that flash.
It seems odd, that seems to be the only thing they're missing (why they bothered with the Thunderhawk Transporter rather than the Aquilla is beyond me).

I actually have a 70% sculpted Aquilla I was building for an objective marker. I really have to dig that out and finish it.






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 Post subject: Daemonhunters
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:04 am 
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It seems odd, that seems to be the only thing they're missing (why they bothered with the Thunderhawk Transporter rather than the Aquilla is beyond me).


Yep its really annoying when I saw it in the rules I was totally hanging out for one as my inquisitors transport but it seems that none of the sculpters were keen on doing it.  One day I am planning on making my own.

Thanks for all the work on the list.  I bought some grey knights so I am really keen on playing some games with it.

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 Post subject: Daemonhunters
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:07 am 
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Based on your unwillingness to consider any changes at all, I doubt I'll ever collect and play this army list.

It's too full of stuff that I just don't find appealing.

Which is fine, of course, everyone has a different vision of what's cool.

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 Post subject: Daemonhunters
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:51 pm 
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I doubt you'll have much luck convining people of methods of making Inquisitors hard. It's hard enough convining people they even have a place in the Epic system much less that they should actually be survivable or have rules as to such effect.

You are correct, without an Inquisitor an Inquisitorial army has lost. It will cease to exist the moment the battle is over. The hencemen will return to the nearest conclave to report the death of their master, and the guardsmen will be left to there fate. Marines and ordos troops will evacuate.

They might stand a chance of compleating whatever there last objective was, but after that, the battle's over.

I'd point you to my list for additional suggestions on keeping them surviveable. (Renforced armour namely. - Inquisitor lords where aritifcer armour ya know.)

But they really need to -allways- be the break your spirit goal.

I'm not sure how to handle hencemen. I've allways imagined inquisitors to have relatively small groups of personal staff. A preist, clerk, Imperial Guard Officer, scout... I don't think the staff converts well into epic, which Is why I made the Inquisitor a 'stand' rather than a character, representing the lord, (Or basic Inquisitor) and his staff, and then put than stand in the midst of a unit of Inquisitoral stormtroopers.

More to follow later.

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 Post subject: Daemonhunters
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:01 pm 
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Oh, you've fallen into the same trap I nearly did as well. Or did you seriously mean to give Inquisitoral stormtroopers the option to take Rhino transports, AND Valkyries, within the same formation?

I know it seems a little more fiddly, but Rhino's AND Chimeras, OR Valkyries, seemed to make more sence transport wise.

Another slight point. If you take Grey Knights, and a grey knight grand master as the supream commander... I'm not sure you should be allowed to take Inquisitoral storm troops, or anything else not grey-knight like. I just seems odd to see an Army of grey knights, with a screen of stormtroopers in Chimera's.

and you know I don't like your method of handling Assassins... They seem allmost -too- good. All those randomised hits could go a hell of a long way to wrecking an entire artillary company, or D6 blast markers... *shakes head* As an adversary I would prefear to have some ability to stop the assassins before they struck, rather than have to suffer a potential 8 blast markers and a titan killer hit to a broken supream commander formation...

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 Post subject: Daemonhunters
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:36 pm 
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Why not make the Assasin's attack a simple Sniper hit?

I agree with Hena that TK is OTT.

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 Post subject: Daemonhunters
PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:25 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 11 2008,05:07)
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Based on your unwillingness to consider any changes at all, I doubt I'll ever collect and play this army list.

Awww... ?:(

It's not that I won't consider any changes at all. As it happens, some of the things that have been brought up (the damned assassins, for example) are things I've pondered a lot and never been completely happy with. Shrouding I would consider moving to 30cm with some pursuading. But the point of these things is that everything like this is like this for a reason. I'm willing to consider changing things - but if you won't hear out why it's like that in the first place then that's not something I'm likely to consider. Like the assassin thing - I know it's gamey, but I decided it was an acceptable for the return of simplicity. I'm willing to consider going back the other way, but it's going to need to be thought more through than merely "it's gamey".

But this list has been in development for... four years? There's very little I want to change drastically, because it's pretty well balanced now.

I'd point you to my list for additional suggestions on keeping them surviveable. (Renforced armour namely. - Inquisitor lords where aritifcer armour ya know.)

But remember it is a stand comprising the Inquisitor himself and his closest retinue. Reinforced armour is suitable for an entire squad of Astartes in full Terminator plate. One model doesn't warrant it. Remember that even with my stats of "only" a 4+ save that's equivalent to a tactical squad of Space Marines. Even the toughest Inquisitor and retinue shouldn't be much tougher than that...

Reinforced armour was something I considered early on and decided against - hence the Last Man Standing rule.

But they really need to -allways- be the break your spirit goal.
An interesting idea, but I really don't think that would work in game terms (it could result in taking a single Inquisitor stand and holding it safe somewhere. The point with the BTS formation is that if you are playing it safe then you are avoiding to deploy the most powerful formation in your army - but making an Inquisitor the BTS would mean we need to assign a minimum formation size, which I don't want to do.

I'm not sure how to handle hencemen. I've allways imagined inquisitors to have relatively small groups of personal staff.
Inquisitors typically have hundreds - and often thousands - of personal staff. Up to ~50 as a battlefield formation is not unreasonable. While they're often depicted as having a core warband of 5-10 hard-bitten operatives - especially since these sizes work best for Inquisitor and Warhammer 40,000 - their personal staff can reasonably be much, much bigger than this, which is a formation suitable for Epic.

Oh, you've fallen into the same trap I nearly did as well. Or did you seriously mean to give Inquisitoral stormtroopers the option to take Rhino transports, AND Valkyries, within the same formation?
I doubt many people would bother but I don't really see the issue with it. The mental image of a squadron of rhinos trundling along with valkyries hovering over them seems pretty cool to me.

In game terms there's no issue of mixing the unit types, it just makes the skimmers less effective as they're constrained by keeping in coherency with the other units.

Something I'd be willing to consider, but I really can't see the real need.

Another slight point. If you take Grey Knights, and a grey knight grand master as the supream commander... I'm not sure you should be allowed to take Inquisitoral storm troops, or anything else not grey-knight like. I just seems odd to see an Army of grey knights, with a screen of stormtroopers in Chimera's.
I don't want to constrain people. Too many restrictions will only make the list more complicated. For example, you can do exactly that in 40K - take Grey Knights and shield them with stormtroopers - indeed I've seen people doing it.

A Grey Knight Master should certainly be able to command Inquisitorial forces in the absence of an Inquisitor.

and you know I don't like your method of handling Assassins... They seem allmost -too- good. All those randomised hits could go a hell of a long way to wrecking an entire artillary company, or D6 blast markers... *shakes head* As an adversary I would prefear to have some ability to stop the assassins before they struck, rather than have to suffer a potential 8 blast markers and a titan killer hit to a broken supream commander formation...
Well, I really don't want to represent the assassins as a stand. The point is that a single individual on it's own is just not possible for either commander to keep track of, especially since assassins are not connected with any chain-of-command. (And an artillery company is unlilkely to have a leader or commander in there)

I'm very willing to consider revamping or flat out removing the assassins. They've been a constant pain.

For assassin, my suggestion would be

- MW3+ or AP3+/AT3+ hit to a single characters unit + d6 BMs on formation

TK hit is too powerful for my taste and this simplifies it even further.
Why not make the Assasin's attack a simple Sniper hit?

I agree with Hena that TK is OTT.
I'd be willing to consider this. My standpoint with the assassin is that it is rather similar to, say, a Lunar cruiser - which inflicts a 2+TK(D3) on any war engine AND has a MW orbital bombardment! And that's only 150 points. With this comparison, TK(1) doesn't seem that bad to me.

However, the assassin does have the "I can't do anything about it" factor, which I don't like. (Even though it's not really very different from spacecraft)

How about 3+MW with Sniper?

And I'm not sure D6 BM isn't more powerful than D6 hits. D6 BM can auto-break a unit of termintors while D6 hits won't do anything. D6BM will also cause more kills against broken formations.

3+MW+Sniper and D6 hits?

Another thing that I think would be good for inquisitor lists would be required allies. The point being that in this sized battle, Inquisition always uses allies. Perhaps something along the lines of
Absolutely not on this one. For two main reasons.
1) I don't want to constrain people's armies. Epic lists are typically unrestrictive in this sort of "you have to have X units" way. It's not needed, adds no real flavour (if you want the sort of Inquisitor that works with the Imperial Guard, then take Guard allies!). The lists have been specifically designed to allow pure-inquisitorial or pure-Grey Knight forces.
2) The Inquisition most certainly does not always work with Guard or Marines. That's the whole point of them having dedicated forces of stormtroopers and chamber militants. What if they are investigating the local forces themselves? What if they don't know who they can trust? What if guard or regular Space Marines cannot be trusted with this mission for whatever reason?






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 Post subject: Daemonhunters
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:27 am 
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I'm fine with the Inquisition operating alone.

However, I'd prefer this list to have ... less units available, and be less restricted in what allies you can take.

Fact is, it has nigh-every Imperial unit available, for no drawback.

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 Post subject: Daemonhunters
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:11 pm 
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Did you read my Inquisition list 'Evil and Chaos?' I tried to reduce the number of Inquisition forces avialable while still leaving them a balenced army. And limited the number of avilable allies.

*sighs* I don't know what to do about the assassins, I really don't... My reason for having them as a stand was I assumed in Epic scale an Inquisitor would have access to more than one. Just as in 40k apocalypse there is an assassin formation of around 5 assassins. (Sort of a stands worth really.) Which works fine in prinicpal, but people seem to dislike the idea of it functioning as a unit by itself. And it seems wrong to have it attached to another formation, given how there supposed to work alone... Perhaps there's an alternate soultion to random blast markers, or a stand we're missing somewhere?


Renforced armour represents Not only the lord in artificer armour, but his successors in such armour, the medic, and the dispencible minions he uses as a shield. I was quite careful to difference it from terminator armour, - note it doesn't have -thick rear- but still makes the stand as a whole a lot better to surivive the first volly of fire. (In game terms it looks pretty cool when the Inquisitors formation gets shot at a lot, and the front 5 or so stands of stormies die but the Inquisitor remains.) A basic 4+ just isn't that survivable. Unless you have the last man standing rule, but then he becomes a little silly in really large formations... *ponders* Perhaps a 3+ save as a middle ground?

The break my spirit goal condition was just a thought, if you don't think it'll work, I'm not sure I have more to say really.

As for staff, I think your confusing -employees- and or -minons- with -personal staff- An Inquisitors still a human. He can only deal with so many people as his direct retinue. Sure he has thousands of people working for him across the galaxy. But the chances of any serious number of those being in a given area at any one time is unlikely in the extreme. (Have you read the series of dark Hersey roleplaying books? There isn't a much better source of concentrated Inquisitoral fluff)

The only people he's allways going to have with him are those he constantly travels with, and I find it hard to picture that being a group of thousands for the obvious logicistal problems it would cause. The Inquisitoral army represents a standed Inquisitor uncovering something, and summoning help from where-ever he can. His ordos, or local forces, or his own private troops from the nearest Inquisitorial fortress. In addition the agents the Inquisitor does have at his disposal are unlikely to be able to form a combat ready fromation with unit coherency support and tatics equilivent to a well organised guard company. They are unlikely to have ever met before, or even been involved in large scale battle. They'll be used to operating in small groups or alone. I just don't see them suddenly becoming a huge battlefield formation of up to 40+ people.

The Valkyrie thing just seemed silly to me. But I will happily ceed the fact it isn't particularly game breaking. (Unless you shield the valkyries with rhinos which seems really odd.) Nor can I see it being used much.

I'm not sure I agree over the Grey Knights being able to commendeer stormtroopers. I wouldn't even be sure If they knew where they where, or if they could quickly gain access to them on short notice such as widespread demonic invastion.
However on consultation of my deamonhunters codex, you apprently don't need an Inquisitor to field Inquisitoral stormtroops, so it's reasonable propostion to allow the same extentsion in epic. In conculsion, it's nothing something I would ever do, but I don't think it's that broken from a game playing perspective and it seems to be ok fluff wise.
I've covered assassins.

But as a last point I would like to voice my agreement on not having required allies. For all the reasons mentioned, I stand by the fact an Inquisitoral force would have occasions where it just wouldn't be able to use local forces. I don't think it would happen often, and there would be drawbacks. (Lack of AA anyone?) but I think it's a real possibility, and as such, should not be excluded from the armylist.

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 Post subject: Daemonhunters
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:16 pm 
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Did you read my Inquisition list 'Evil and Chaos?


I haven't seen it; I'd like a look at your list.

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 Post subject: Daemonhunters
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:13 pm 
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*amused*

It's two posts down. 'Generic Inquisitor force'

It's a rough draft, so it's not nearly as prettyly presented as Lord Inquisitors, and it doesn't yet have the change. 'Inquisitoral Stormtroopers do not have 'scout'' added to it.

It's rather unpopular on the Specalist games forums, so I was going to give up on it totally, but if it sparks any interest over here, I'll write it up neatly with the first round of playtest changes.

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